Please clarify

Frisian_COM wrote:

• "Conventional", what is a conventional browser?

Hello Frisian

Conventional browser means any browser that can be used today(opera, chrome, edge and so on)

Frisian_COM wrote:

• "Unmodified", which add-ons and plugins are considered modifications

Unmodified means you cannot use any add-on or scripts on your browser that makes anything you do on the game automatic.

Frisian_COM wrote:

• "Scripts ... automate actions", does this include scripts that login on a "dummy" account to fetch information from the game, e.g. hero experience- or attacker points, which is not available without logging in? Is the creation of a dummy account for this purpose allowed to begin with? Or does it only apply to scripts automating actions on a "real" player's account.

Yes this includes that as well.

If you want a more detailed explanation then you should contact the Multi-Hunter for the server you are on as they can go over them in more detail with you.

Templar Knight wrote:

Yes this includes that as well.
If you want a more detailed explanation then you should contact the Multi-Hunter for the server you are on as they can go over them in more detail with you.

Considering how many THOUSANDS of lines of skype discussions over this I have seen just in the past month, let alone the past 10 years on this exact subject I feel that taking this private, offline, direct to MH would be wrong...

The issue is that there is so much subject to interpretation, particularly as different scripts do different things, many of them having nothing to do with the game and apparently resulting in bans from time to time. Now, I am not speaking from experience, I always run a vanilla browser and the extent of my bans have been for language and profile descriptions. lol.

But with new add-ons to browsers available daily, and the hope of new players starting Travian, it NEEDs to be clearer what is and is not allowed. Maybe a love list of allowed and not allowed? A list of browsers that are allowed (Obviously Opera, Chrome, FF, Safari, Edge, but there are many others that are growing in usage and some of these could have built in systems that may trigger ban/cheat/multi alerts?

This ongoing taboo about banning discussion has been in place for the 10 years I have been playing, however it just results in mass offline frustration. Particularly as our MH (all respect to them) are just human, with lives to live and as far as I know, still un paid for their services..) Therefore, timeframes on responses on speed vs normal, reactions and punishments being even handed, different MH's having a different perspective on what punishment is leveled.

I personally feel this should all be more open to discussion and interpretation.

Frisian_COM wrote:

Now....in this scenario... WHO is operating illegally and WHO should suffer consequences?

I hope both accounts would suffer consequences.

Players who benefit from this script is doing illegal - unaware or not. This script is not working as a browser add-on but as an analysis bot (whatever), and the source of this data is not the .sql but "dummy" accounts (wich run the script to do automate actions) - so it's illegal, but it's just my point.

It reminds me of crop finder, many and many years ago. Crop finder was forbidden but detect its use is impossible (as well as these other tools), and because this (or not) TG set this tool as a premium feature.

I agree 100% with morgasshk_AU and you, Frisian_COM, this terms should be clear.

Well, if the dummy account is bots - which it is. It should be punished and it does. So what is the issue? None of us "That do not have our own defense tool" minds that an account is being punished and "all 4 sides of the map" benefit from that since that tool is public. If punishment is required - it should be given to the non-public tools that uses this data for the good of their own alliances only.

And if TG is looking for solutions to handle this, they could just build their own official defense tool. Just like what TG did with the cropper finders that was mentioned above. And start developing that one based on the needs of players - so that there'll be no requirements for an alternative one.

fnx wrote:

Well, if the dummy account is bots - which it is. It should be punished and it does. So what is the issue? None of us "That do not have our own defense tool" minds that an account is being punished and "all 4 sides of the map" benefit from that since that tool is public. If punishment is required - it should be given to the non-public tools that uses this data for the good of their own alliances only.

Exactly. The tool is public. The hero XP is the only piece of questionable info provided by it, barely useful when it comes to serious level. yes, it is against the rule but the field is leveled still.

fnx wrote:

And if TG is looking for solutions to handle this, they could just build their own official defense tool. Just like what TG did with the cropper finders that was mentioned above. And start developing that one based on the needs of players - so that they'll be no requirements for an alternative one.

And again, exactly. If this topic is to shut the only available public tool (which give advantage to team with their private tools and by no means will make game more fair) I "cheer" TC honest intentions to put nails into travian coffin. If these are honest intentions and not an attempt to gain an advantage because someone has private tool which does exactly the same

As a DC, this tool is invaluable. Frankly I don't know how I did it prior to the tool. DCing is such a terribly difficult job and this is one the few things out there that makes the job easier, less time consuming and bearable.

I do not have 12 hours a day to sift through google form related data. This tool cuts the analysis portion of DCing by at least half. Not to mention the burden on players to report the data on such a form. In short the tool is vital.

Frankly without it I would seriously reconsider whether I want to DC again or even play at all. Without DCs the game is one-sided and will die.

Ideally Legends would take a note out of the Kingdoms notebook and utilize an API so third party tools can function "legally". Of course doing so would probably require a massive code overhaul.

The rules as written are too absolute, there needs to be room for legitimate third party tools to operate and not simply "tolerated". (legitimate being things that don't "cheat", like bots, account automation, raiding scripts etc.)

Frisian_COM , are you trying to get travian-ally "removed" from the scene so that you can profit from a def tool you are making ?

Frisian_COM wrote:

Now....in this scenario... WHO is operating illegally and WHO should suffer consequences?

WHAT is Travian's position on this??

Sounds like someone just coded his own def tools and now found about this free one. Butthurt much?

Absolutely agree with ELE and BlackBlade. We have worked with spread sheets for years which was not only highly time consuming for the deff coordination but also a pain for all our members who were filling in the sheets for hours. Moreover, one has to stop collecting data at a certian point in time, so the troops could still make it to the designed / presumed target.
This was not only annoying for everyone but also hard for new members / unexperienced players especially who aren't as fast with the sheet as those who got used to it.
A tool which makes everyone capeable to insert what's happening on their rps right away by c&p reduces the 'stupid' work to a minimum and gives the dc the chance to actually _read_ the attacks. Well. If they can ofc.
The hero-part of the tool is not necessary - more to the contrary: It provides information that might add more harm than use to def planning. So every reasonable dc would tell their members to PLEASE ignore this section of the tool and only rely on what changes of gear and/or xp s/he sees him-/herself.
I personally would be glad if it was possible to just disable this hero-tool and use the rest only. Not only because of what the rules say about "taking data directly from the server" but also because deff planning would be way calmer w/o people yelling out false information which they think they have encountered.
Moreover, @Frisian_COM could lean back in peace

ELE wrote:

And again, exactly. If this topic is to shut the only available public tool (which give advantage to team with their private tools and by no means will make game more fair) I "cheer" TC honest intentions to put nails into travian coffin. If these are honest intentions and not an attempt to gain an advantage because someone has private tool which does exactly the same

It definitely is not my intention, at all.

The main question is: the rules is not totally clear about this.

Using this tool is illegal or not? Since the use of scripts and bots (public or not) is forbidden, the use of this tool should also be because reasons said above. But here we are: even if it is illegal, thousands of players benefit from this tool, and it remains undetected (and always will be undetected) - therefore, TG have to consider this fact.

If this tool is illegal: TG can't ban any player account because this is undected, so this tool will always be used. If your enemy could use this without consequences, why would not you, too? TG should rethink about that.

If this tool is (or becames) legal: would be a great idea if TG set this as a game feature, every (new/average) player would be able to use this. Why not? C'mon TG!

In both cases: THIS HAVE TO BE CLARIFIED.

MuchachoNL wrote:

I'm actually confused as to why a tool such as this even exists, as Gettertools has been around since T2.5.

We all got it, TG staff does not play the game. No need to embarrassed your self any farther really. There is nothing remotely close on getter to what the tool provides. If TG cared about better game experience they would talk to the owner long ago, ask him nicely to remove one small piece of questionable info and beg for the permission to incorporate the tool in game. Or rather offer him to buy it out.

MuchachoNL wrote:

To give my view on this as a multihunter (...)

I'm actually confused as to why a tool such as this even exists, as Gettertools has been around since T2.5.

Wow.
So, lemme understand this slowly.

You are a multi hunter, right? representative of... and so on.
And you think GT that doesn't allow players to put in any actual attacks that can be read by others could help a deff-coordinator to decide where to set up a wall?

might I ask a question? have you ever been in the (probably uncomfortable) position to coordinate def?

MuchachoNL wrote:

Yes, I've been defco for quite a few servers actually, but I used my own "incoming attack form" that they needed to fill in and PM me, and I'd check GT where the nearest def was.

Right because this is such a good way to sort 400-500 incoming attacks (with multiple waves) on 10-20 players from anywhere from 5-40 attackers (on a typical US server). Analyzing attacks in a spreadsheet pales in comparison to the tool.

Knowing the proximity of defense isn't of itself enough. You need to be able to figure out how much defense, get the call out. find players that are on, make sure coverage is in place to manage the incoming defense. Plus get snipes lists, keep track of the defense moving where. Then you need to assess the damage after, keeping track of who hit where, who faked where, land times of all those etc

I wouldn't be able to do all of that in a spreadsheet alone. I spend on average about 5-6 hrs per defense call doing all of this. Moving it all to a spreadsheet would easily double that time. I use spreadsheets to complement the tool, not replace the tool. I do not have 12 hours a day to respond to defense calls. The time I do spend is still too much.

The Hero XP bit is also essential to the process, it can help rule out attacks. Though skilled attackers would avoid sending their hero purposely to try and defeat it.

ELE wrote:

beg for the permission to incorporate the tool in game. Or rather offer him to buy it out.

There are a bunch of third party tools that would be better off being available within the game. I would even pay Travian for the privilege of using them! Of course I also worry about such things becoming bug ridden as we've seen each new server patch to be. Third party tool operators in my experience have been nothing but responsive, both to emails and in actually fixing problems as they come up.