Team meeting 1 mars
I was contacted today by Ameno that asked for contacts with the meta leaders. TG wanted to do a meeting to discuss the situation on server.
It was easiest to do it on skype and of course many that heard about the meeting wanted to participate. Too many makes it more difficult to talk but in the end the participants sort it out themselves to 2-3 per meta.
The ones that participated in the discussion was:
(Others joined too and some also leaved during the session)
Ros, Luca, Francesco, branco Uollas
ekaterina, Daniil, Igor Union
Nimu and Natalia/I CUP
其鴻 NB team in IM meta
Tobias (unique, german part of IM)
Mohammed, arabs IM
Cicek Turkey NW
Pitter Jack O´Lantern DeTank FC/DOGMA
Анастасия, Богдан - prime IM
Evgeny, Probuu - CUP
From TG the representatives was:
Brian Product Owner (The guy with the power to make decisions)
Martina Communication Community Manager
Ameno Senior Community Manager
I have excluded post that was similar or not belonged to the topic
The meeting started with information from Martina
Since we are a lot, I would like you to stick to a few guidelines:
- be constructive, think wisely before stating/proposing something
- please only one speaker per Alliance/Meta
- try to avoid one word per line, complete the sentence in one message, so there is no overlapping of messages
- use reduced amount of emoji, they are nice, but sometime disruptive to the conversation
- no insults, they probably make you feel better but won't solve a single thing
Good afternoon everybody,
thanks for being here today, we know the situation is not the best as well as the mood.
We wanted to have a talk with you in order to try to find how to go on with the Finals Tournament game world. We received a lot of feedback about our last rollback and the timing we decided to use for that, we did talk with 5 people and we got 5 different answers about what could have been the best timing for it.
This does not mean that we will do now another roll-back, but in fact we created this channel to talk with you about what should be done now.
While investigating the happenings on the Finals server, we have found out that the starvation bug is nothing we can fix within days, because it is caused by a technical architecture setting that was set up in 2009. This means we are in the need to rebuilt from scratch many systems connected with it.
Today, we had a patch ready and approved which would have speed the battle and therefore reduce the event jams. The second patch will be ready, but not tested probably during mid of next week. This patch will not fix, but highly improve, how the starvation is calculated and added and the effects of it. The complete rework needs for sure more than 10 days.
If you wonder why we didn't look deeper into this bug before, we actually did. But we failed to reproduce it and therefore pin-point the exact error. Now, with both events happened last week and this week, and with our extended log files for it, we discovered what we wrote above (that this is not ONE bug, but the complete system is not able to calculate proper starvation for such a huge amount of defensive troops).
So lets make this clear - you all have proven, that you are able to "crash" the server.
If we cannot agree on a proper code of conduct, we will face the same situation again. This is VERY clear to us, and it also clear for you, I hope....
Fakes are fine, they are part of the game. But what we saw the last 30 hours has simply proven, that some of you dont do fakes, but aim to crash the server. I.e. players who send first 1 then 2 then 3 then 4 etc, until they discovered the threshold where troops will fight again. Then they continued with that amount in their fakes to ensure another starvation round. Again, this is clearly "not a strategy of faking", this is purely damaging the fun for everyone. If we cant agree to stop this, not much solutions will be left for us to pick...
What we can propose to you is:
- another rollback to a date where most of us agree upon
- enabling the confederacy system
- continue with the current state and do some data manipulation most of you agree upon
- put the server in no starvation mode, this means that mostlikely the natars will win
- and we are open to any other idea most of you agree upon and which is technically feasable in short amount of time
Please read carefully before we start the meeting
Даниил, 1:10 PM
1) what does it mean
"- enabling the confederacy system"
2) Can you make a rollback at which the outgoing hammers will continue their movement, and not return home?
3) Can we discuss any rollback date? Or you can make only specific options.
TL - Brian, 1:13 PM
2) unlikely. i have to check with DEV, but the System automatically cancels all troop movements
3) the date can be discussed, up to 10 days in the past (if the backup isnt corrupted). But the time of the backup is fix. There is only one backup per day
I think most of us like or even love travian and we dont want the game to die. We are only talking about tournament finals right now. The amount of defence and attacks we are dealing with in the finals, on most WW, is not something that the game engine and code can handle hence we cannot play and consider that a certain result is fair, server cannot provide fair play conditions to all teams. Another roll back is not a solution, a massive amount of players lost motivation and will not retun to finish the server, it will be better to close the server in my opinion. Declare Natars victorious asap, dont let the server run for another month or so. As for prizes, they should be given to meta leaders I guess, they know best what player should have a prize. Please do not reward eternal cheaters and rank manipulators again cause it;s not only sad but it's frustrating to see.
branco, 1:16 PM
uollas is making an official response, it will be posted in some minutes
First of all I would like to thank your for the invitation and your willingness to solve this situation. This is the official response from Uollas meta.
For us, finals is over. There is no way to fix it, people became inactive and don’t want to play anymore. Whatever happens, it will be completely different from what it should have been and thus unfair.
What we do want to know is how you will try to keep players playing and not quitting the game after this server. Herefore we have 3 points we like to discuss
1) Compensation: Our suggestion would be 50 percent of bought gold in vouchers
2) Future servers: How will you make sure future servers will not have the same problem (partially answerd above)
3) Customer support: This has to drastically improve. We don’t think it is possible that it takes so long for anyone from TG to step up and discuss the problems with the leaders or have an official statement.
TL - Brian, 1:20 PM
2) well … i am not sure. Installing backups is a VERY rare case nowadays. couple of years ago, troop movements were cancelled. If some of them are, but other not, this could mean either a) something is not correct -> we will check after this talk or b) someone tried to Keep attacks going on, but obviously not all of them … which is even worse...
so to sum this up:
to cancel all troop movements is the easiest, fail prove way to go
we can try to let all troop movements continue, but i cannot promise this at this Point, because i simply dont know.
ekaterina, 1:24 PM
All outgoing were cancelled the last time. But it seriously interfered the game play and changed the outcome of the ww race.
Ros, 1:24 PM
If all will be cancelled, the situation will be exactly the same that happened with last rollback. Our hammers (that was supposed to go against Ru WW) where at home, so when we sent again they found RU WW too higher to do damages
(while before rollback, we was able to zero them, with the same hammers)
TL - Brian, 1:25 PM
@ Uollas meta
sad to hear that. So for all of you the Server "is over" and you dont want to participate in a proper solution finding to continue "fairest way possible"?!
About your 3 Questions/discussion Points:
those are not part of this. Once we agreed here, we can think/discuss About those points
Ameno, 1:25 PM
Just 2 cents about rollback time - how about 23.02 around 19-00?
Анастасия, 1:26 PM
if a rollback is done to saturday, was the WWKs already sent then?
ekaterina, 1:26 PM
Not acceptable by us. We had a large scale op running. Many players sent the attacks over 17h. That will kill their motivation too.
In general we agreed on the back up from 24.02 at 19:00, but with the WWKs on the way, not home. That's why us and Uollas are asking those questions about unit movements.
Ameno, 1:28 PM
There will never be time that would satisfy everyone. Just to make sure. Rollback is not something that can be done to almost any minute. It's not a movie or something that you can scroll and pause. I guess you understand that.
Tobias, 1:31 PM
I am representing the opinion of IM.
Thanks for your try to solve it with us players in a dialoque.
We agree with Emerik in that space, that another rollback isn´t a solution. We want to declare Natars as winner, too.
But what is the compensation of Travian Games for breaking their own generel terms and condition article 13 paragraph 3.
It said, that TG is to be liable for negligent actions. This bug was known by your team since last finals. You had more than one year to fixed it, or rebuild a server. so it was negligent acting to start this server. you know that on finals in endgame many troops will be in the WW and many troop movements will come. So it was negligent. (i only can explain it on german my english is not that great to explain it on english better)
SO what is your compensation for that, to all the players who loved travian and are still pissed of it at the moment.
For this finals, only Natars are a good solution.
So Immortals is voting for set natars as winner, and give players a respectable compensation of their gold, which they invest in this server.
In our opinion you should give all player a voucher about their invest money so that they can use them in another server, because in our opinion many of them don´t want to play any longer the finalsserver because of so many bugs and lost motivation.
best regards Tobias
Ros, 1:32 PM
“Just 2 cents about rollback time - how about 23.02 around 19-00?
Ameno, Yesterday at 1:25 PM”
this means rollback after 5h of Bp spawn, so like 11h before they will be active. 11h are enough to plan hammers against enemies WW, but as ekaterina said many hammers was sent in the morning of BP spawn, so need to change plan and find other hammers to send that will arrive in time.
Anyway, many players lost motivation as @branco and Emerik said. I think the server is already ended, what if we do rollback to BP day and "bug" will happen again? We will lose time again and again, and we already lost too much.
If you want to keep players playing next rounds (not only next finals) you should refund them and close this server
TL - Brian, 1:36 PM
thats exactly the Problem. The "bug" can be forced by YOU, the Players. As Long as you dont agree to stop this no-fakes (see first Statement), there are some measures we can take to ensure, starvation will not collapse. But it will most likely mean "all fake attacks cancelled", instead of the current System, that still allows you to fake.
Cicek, 1:42 PM
Firstly i don't want to blame somebody or make them angry but i don't know how can i tell you kindly..
people became angry because of 2 things,
2-) After the rollback why hammers are at the home?
Almost all turkish player knew that bug since many years ago(arround 7-8 years).
That bug happened many times in tr servers,(me personally faced that bug more than 10 times), but nobody cares from TG, there was always rollback and next time nothing changed.
A lot of players doesn't play travian anymore baceuse of this and bad management..
For example last time ;
check that post , it's created at 11 February arround 15 days ago before the bug...even if you could'nt understand turkish you would see "Event" word...
You didn't care because that happened in tr server but what kind of management do you have?how TG management and devolopers thinking "There is some bug but it will not happening in final" why?is there any piece of logic?what have you done against that before now ?are you not tried to fix bug, you prayed god for the fixing bug?
i am played computer game since 2004 and i am played most of the game in gameworld,there was similar kind managements in old games, but all of them gone..death..
before all you should listen people from travian and don't take offensive but TG has no in game experience, you have to find somebody played travian since many years..
After the rollback hammers are at was home,look what people think about that? this is only about game experience..
Pitter, 1:47 PM
As representant of the accounts of FC and dogma I have to leave also a statement.
As some here already stated , we think the server is done. The server is a fail based on a bug, which was known by Travian . The bug was used by player without any honor, as they did raise the numbers of events with unneeded fakes, So we say as well "The winner are the natars" - and not anyone else.
It is a shame the round of this game must end like this. the "bill" of this goes at one part to travian , as they was not able to fix it and to this player which used the bug.
A rollback can not be a solution, as you will not find a time all will do like. As well, the position of some armys are now known and that could lead to actions which was not possible without knowing the positions.
Very much player do not like to play anymore at this final round.
Now the side which travian will not like.. Travian offer a game and within this game they get money for the gold, which is a big part of this game. We all know without gold its near impossible to play this game. Much player invest very much real money (up to more than 1.000 Euro) to play with success in this game. So here the player now await from travian a payback..
ekaterina, 1:51 PM
And one more thing. The TG servers were always bugged and many finals suffered a lot of troubles. Some things were dealt with, others - ignored. It was never acceptable, but most of us kept coming back. It's our fault the same as TG's. For me and my players it was a decision to play this bugged server and we take the full responsibility of our choice. And it's nothing to do with winning or losing or "our interests being hurt" (while they really are and it's not all right). We just don't quit our decision some steps before the finish regardless of the outcome. Therefore we don't agree neither with the end of the server nor with the draw.
TL - Brian, 1:54 PM
can you think of something to motivate your Players to come back again on this Server? Something we can add/provide that let them continue?
branco, 1:57 PM
Just discussed this with other leaders, and the answer is unfortanetely no. As dacia and immortals also don't want a rollback, I don't think anything more can added to the discussion, except to solve problems for the future.
TL - Brian, 1:58 PM
sure - but those armies will be alive again if you agree on a backup
besides that … anything to motivate them?
Michał, 1:58 PM
There is no chance, and certainly not after the server's return. In my opinion, you need to reconcile with the server no longer exists and make a list of wonderful accounts and the miracle of players and give them money. For the rest, in my opinion, it is not necessary because they had fun until the construction of the miracle. And finally, calmly solve the problem of this error so that the next server is good.
Evgeny, 2:04 PM
Stop whining pls. If you came here for the solution, then you definitely are far from being demotivated.
In my opinion best way will rollback on 22 feb.
All hammers stayed at home and all have equal chances.
But we still have problem with bug.
Emerik, 2:05 PM
I think we can easily see the majority already. Most of us agree that finals 2018-2019 is already over, we cannot bring back players and motivate them to finish the server. And even if we can convince and 70-80% players to return, it's still not enough, we cannot feed the same amount of defence with 20-25% less players. The best thing that TG can do is to apologize for the situation, close the server, make some promises for the future and give some compensation to players who bought gold. If you insist on dragging back players into the server that caused frustration it's not a good option. We need a fresh start and a better travian !
branco, 2:08 PM
Again, I want to say thank you for talking to us. It makes me less sad now that I see that travian actually cares. But you do have to realise that sometimes broken stuff cannot be fixed.
TL - Brian, 2:17 PM
What if we Rollback (22nd, 23rd, whatever) and every Player gets the same amount of Gold added to his account, that he bought already. Would this motivate your Players to come back?
ofc we Need to Setup other restrictions as well, like fake attacks beeing cancelled etc.
TL - Brian, 2:22 PM
“can you tell us pls TG will do anything against bug ?
Cicek, Yesterday at 2:19 PM”
yes, as written in the very first big introduction letter. We need to rework several Systems. this will take at least 10 (working days)
Даниил, 2:40 PM
@TL - Brian
what are we discussing now?
as far as I can see, some people say that they are not going to continue playing, some are ready to do this if you make the necessary restrictions on the server and the correct rollback is made
You want to discuss how best to shut down the server and compensate the players for this, or what is needed by players who are ready to continue.
TL - Brian, 2:42 PM
@TL - Brian
Даниил, Yesterday at 2:40 PM
i still have the romantic idea of finding an Agreement here. some sort of solution that makes it worth to continue for the most of you
Даниил, 2:44 PM
I think this is impossible, we will not be satisfied with closing the server - we are ready to discuss how we can better roll it back
someone doesn't want to keep playing. You can't please everyone
ekaterina, 2:45 PM
I don't want to offend anyone, but i'm pretty sure many will continue no matter what. Also the decision of the leaders to delete isn't 100% shared by the players. The problem is it's unfair for the coalitions to lose part of the players. But as already so many times stated… there re won't be THE ONE decision fair for all. We all should have understood that coming to the bugged server.
TL - Martina, 2:45 PM
Ok let's have a poll pls. Please vote with a reaction emoji to this post.
We (as alliance/meta) would like to find a solution to continue --> use (heart) 3
It doesn't matter what the solution is, we (as alliance/meta) will quite --> use (star) 7
(edit too many voted)
probuu, 2:56 PM
Sorry could not get in earlier. Motivation would be restored if tg admit their mistakes of using unsolved and not bugfree environment for finals. Saying we fixed it when you just throw a bandage on it was seen thru multiple times now and people getting fed enough to riot. You played bandage card too much. Announce serious make over to legacy code if there is no other solution for simple and working fix. The ending of this server doesnt matter if shut it down or let it run in whatever bandaged or restricted condition.
Francesco, 3:24 PM
good morning to everyone, i was sleeping
i just want to say my opinion, and later what will happens, will happens..
only a strange person can accept to win/lose this way, if we do an entire rollback or other solutions, the real winner is not real winner
i understand TG wants this to continue, but for us ( i speak for uollas meta ) , is not possible, we play for win, but winning in this way, is almost like to lose
Даниил, 3:26 PM
our players don't want to give up
in all teams there are players who decide to stop this madness, but some remain. And as the one who brought them to this server, I have to support their desire.
Наталья, 3:38 PM
Good day everyone!
Immediately I apologize for my English. I do not know the language, so I am writing through a translator. If something is unclear, Katya will kindly help with the translation of my words.
So, after a bit of discussion in the CUP leaders chat, we came to some general agreement. Below are our thoughts on this topic.
1. We do not want to continue the game. And we are ready to close the server for technical reasons, and there will be no winner of the 2018-19 final. But if the TG continues to operate the server to the level of 100 Miracle, we will continue to work in the current state of the server, without rollbacks. Just for the final to complete.
2. We are TG clients and pay money for getting some set of services of good quality. Unfortunately, in this round the question of the quality of the services provided remains open. In my opinion, the TG will show respect and care for its customers if each player receives a voucher for gold for the next round as compensation. The amount of gold can be negotiated. This will also save some players in the current finals. Financial responsibility is real responsibility, not just "Sorry!"
3. Alternatively, some other preferences may be considered in the future, for example, Travian +, who suffered in this round as a gift for the entire round.
4. You can also send an invitation to the next final for each player, regardless of statistics.
5. I would like to get a clear idea of how events will develop in the event of "if ...". I would like to hear from the representatives of the TG. We have no right to impose our decisions on you, but we have the right to know the sequence of actions. Those. If a force majeure situation arises, how will a normal server player be protected from bad consequences?
TL - Martina, 2:58 PM
Ok, guys. First, thanks for all your feedbacks. We now need at least 60 minutes to sync internally. Feel free to keep talking if you have additional proposals, but do not expect an answer from us for the time mentioned.
(and a lot of talking when we waited for them to come back but not anything new)
TL - Martina, 4:01 PM
We are here because we want to listen your opinion, if we wouldn't care we would not be here. We have thought to consider a lot of aspects of the situation, including the legal aspects. This is why most likely we can't take a final decision today. We also know it's impossible to find a solution that makes everybody happy, that is why we keep talking about "the majority" of you/your meta.
TL - Martina, 4:08 PM
I think we can spend days and nights talking and chit-chatting about gaming strategy Luckly I have a leader doing all the calculation for me, because I am not that much into this aspect of the game, I am more a coordinator. And if you want we can have such a chat in another moment.
We got all your feedback, before to proceed we need to process some of the feedback you gave us, we need to talk with other people that are currently unavailable and unreachable (like our layer, because the current situation, is no-where in the tournament T&C). Even though we see the need of an answer immediately we cannot give it to you just right now.
I promise you we will come back either with a decision or an additional conversation on Monday, and this is something you can tell also to your alliance / confederacy members.
Tobias, 4:09 PM
what is your decision to player which now deleted and will not longer inside the finals on monday. and you decided to give all player a compensation?
TL - Martina, 4:12 PM
For us the tournament situation (as in active players) froze the moment before the issues started (22nd/23rd February) and even though after the issue someone put in deletion. So those who are currently in deletion, will still be there for us
no worries about this.
(talks about official statement)
TL - Martina, 4:14 PM
First, you can share the whole conversation, it's not a secret hidden conversation.
Before to do an announcement, we need to know what we are going to do. Doing an announcement now, will just mean a lot of questions from players which we cannot answer for the reasons I explained above (we need to talk with many people and see if we have other options)
TL - Martina, 4:18 PM
Ok, we have a proposal for you.
We see 2 options for next week:
2) close the server
So it doesn't really matter what you do now, either way, things you do now, won't matter next week. So we have the option now to do as follow:
we set infoboxes and announce on forum that we are considering these 2 options, so people can go crazy on the server and do whatever they want and we enable no-starvation.
And next week, after we manage to gather all needed data to take a decision, we decide what to do.
Would you be fine with this proceeding?
(The answers was yes)
Emerik, 4:43 PM
Yes, I agree
Problem is, most accounts from Dacia will no longer be on the map on Monday.
TL - Brian, 4:43 PM
we could abort deletion … just saying
TL - Martina, 4:48 PM
I have answered this already a bit above
For us as in TG, it doesn't really matter what is the final decision, the server is frozen to the 22nd/23rd, so if these account existed back then, they will exist for us also on Monday
其鴻, 4:55 PM
Since the destiny of the server will be decide on Monday, maybe we talk about some other things first? Some of my team are concerning about compensation(cwl)
TL - Martina, 4:56 PM
we won't discuss this until we have a final decision on the direction to go
Emerik, 4:59 PM
sounds good, ok, but since most of us want to end this server asap and declare Natars as winners, I feel that you are postponing the inevitable, for no reason.
TL - Brian, 5:00 PM
Emerik there might be legal reasons why we cant do it
we Need to check that first.
TL - Brian, 5:04 PM
one General Thing About compensation:
if i read you correctly, you mentioned:
- no "to all Players same amount" compensation, but "according to what they spent" type of compensation, Right?
- compensation should be usable everywhere, not only on Finals
is that correct?
Tobias, 5:04 PM
其鴻, 5:05 PM
In my personal opinion, we can have both. About an amount for which all players received and a part that due to the spend in the server
For example X for fixed and Y% of consumed for variable
Igor, 5:08 PM
my 50 cents - there are lots of players who doesn't plan to play any more
Emerik, 5:12 PM
Hence, it's important to come clean, apologize on forum, offer decent compensation (vouchers), according to money already invested ... and provide future temptations/ servers that many cant keep away from.
If they have vouchers to play it's more likely they will return
TL - Martina, 5:14 PM
no starvation has just been activated
Emerik, 5:37 PM
OK, All is clear, have a nice weekend everyone !
Tobias, 5:38 PM
Thanks to everybody for this "most time" respectful meeting. have a nive weekend
probuu, 5:38 PM
Very nice to find some real talks. Big respect and see u monday
Pitter, 5:38 PM
have a nice day
Анастасия, 5:39 PM
See u Monday)
其鴻, 5:39 PM
Thanks for everyone trying to solve the problem. Have a nice weekend!
TL - Brian, 5:41 PM
have a great weekend
TL - Martina, 5:42 PM
Have a great weekend everybody