New punishment system - discussion

Very vague information on the topic to be entirely honest.

What happens in cases where the Multihunter is wrong (which does happen a fair bit and they can provide zero proof of the break of rules apart from BOT like replies), and the matter has to go up to the HQ to be sorted out- which does happen at times.

Is there a reverse punishment that you have not mentioned? As if the 48 hours will execute the punishment, how will you react to reversing it if it is proven that it was unjust. Pop back the troops/tiles and everything else to where it was?

You have to explain everything in a lot more details, as by the looks of things... It seems that there is a lot which is missed out.

Now if only we could give punishments that actually hurt, instead of an arbitrary 10-25% off population that can be easily recovered in a couple of days with gold.

I already posted some concerns in a skype chat about this, so I will mostly summarize what I wrote there.

I think it's fine that you are able to accept the automatic punishment. ELE raised a good point on skype - people who do not accept that they've cheated, might still accept punishment, just to get unbanned for their team's sake (as she pointed out, especially on the special servers with region control). These are able to do so without having to wait for support to reply to their messages. Support will also have to spend less times on cheaters who are willing to accept the punishment.

However, I do not like the forced 48 hours timer for automatically accepting the punishment.

Unwarratend bans: these do happen. As a player, you're forced to accept the punishment after 48 hours. There have been cases with people not accepting the ban purely on principle, and even taking TG to court over a ban (and winning). I realize that TG writes that you can still inqure after the countdown... But still, people that know for sure that they aren't in the wrong, are forced to accept punishment (a ban in itself is obviously a punishment too, but...)

People who have been wrongly banned might also be dissuaded from pursuing their case, since they will (at least temporarily) be punished no matter what.

As ELE mentions above too, there is the issue with reversal of punishment. Here, I am not thinking of simply reversing the direct "damage" done to the account (e.g. reduced building levels, emptied warehouses/granaries)... But also that players are more or less forced to gold up granaries and warehouses in hammers, maybe cap fields and so on, after the timer runs out and the account is unbanned, even if they want to appeal the ban. Will the gold/resources spent on these things be reversed too? Will there be any compensation for the time spent rebuilding the account if the punishment is reversed?

Another thing that isn't clarified is what sort of punishments are subject to the countdown. The announcement says "in all cases" though. Does a player risk forced deletion after 48 hours? If so, how does the appeal work? What happens if the account is deleted, and someone settles in the village locations, or if the capital turns natars and is chiefed, and then the punishment is found to be unwarranted? Mind you, there have been cases of accounts forced into a deletion countdown already before, due to faults in the system.

The automatic punishment is also an issue for people who are away for a few days and let sitters run the account in the meantime. The account owners have no chance to appeal the ban before the punishment is enforced.

With the ability to accept the punishment at any time, I really do not see the benefit of a forced punishment timer. As far as I can tell, not having to click accept only "benefits" some specific types of accounts:

Purely sitter-run accounts. Half-inactive tech accounts. Multies.

It's great to witness development in area I'll never see in my life!

Well, I guess I've to write too, and not be a slacker/lurker.

But I "am" a slacker, so instead of writing, I will simply post what I wrote to Another Player (name hidden) just some minutes ago on skype, while discussing this "change"

Another Player, 15:13 just checking if you read anything

ME, 15:13 I did read it before posting, lol

I see a small issue with what's written there

lets say in 48h the ban solves on auto, I hope that pressing the button to manually discuss = freezing that

plus I see that tg keeps ignoring captchas

it's required to avoid a bot to be able to accept

Another Player, 15:15 no, it does not freeze

ME, 15:15 well, if is not frozen I hope that the customer service answers in real time

because 48h are not a lot, and we know their timings

this will cause more people pissed than people happy

especially considering that there's a reasonable percentage of bans that are reversed due to errors

but the discussion can take days with frequent data

I prefer to fight while banned, than get unbanned and still have to fight with the risk of being actually ignored at that point

because I've no real proof that at that point my case has any priority, since unbanned .. aka can be pushed under the rug

and trust me, if i'm getting a % when not guilty, and is not reversed , I'm quitting the game for good

and I think I'm not the only one with this mentality

We had already examples of people, this round, that were wrongly (auto or not I dunno) banned and got the thing reversed after a few days of active discussion...

Another Player, 15:20 mazzi, we are on the same page

ME, 15:20 the majority of who got a ban that they considered wrong and could not reverse always preferred to keep banned. to make a statement

well... is there any way to make them understand that a 48h timer is only good for bots ?

now bots can auto unban ...

I have issues with this punishment system. It is a band aid. Simply put there is not enough MH or support people. This may only partially alleviate the true need for more people to do MH work (volunteers) or by support (paid employee)

Auto punish after 48 hours?

I have been the sitter on three different worlds when the MH claimed the account was a multi-accounting.

All three players traveled extensively with work and could have many different internet login points during a short time period.

MH response time to initial inquiry about the ban ranged from 6 hours to 24 hours, and then each subsequent inquiry seemed to take longer than the first response. Two of the accounts took the ban just to continue playing. One was a Victory point server where the population made a difference to the alliance and the other was a wonder support account and the third one never accepted the punishment.

1) a sitter should NOT be able to accept any of the stated punishment.

2) implementing auto punish after 48 hours without ''active'' owner acknowledgement only encourages the bot/tech/sitter run type accounts.

3) If the punishment is account deletion there needs to be a minimum of period of time (MUCH greater than 48 hours) without owner response ie) someone away on holidays

4) Good to hear there will be global standards for the same type of violation. Have always been surprised to hear of different punishments applied to different servers.

5) Better communication about how get a case reviewed if punishment is applied. In the three cases I had direct contact with, NO MENTION WAS EVER MADE OF AN APPEAL PROCESS

6) NEEDS to have a required maximum time for support to respond to inquiry from customers as to reason for punishment

7) Elevation and monitoring when an account repeatedly contacts support/MH re a punishment

The only other time I had contact with a ''ban'' was when I was the part of a 6 person dual-ling group and we got banned very early one server - within the first week. Each of us claimed innocence. Because the MH couldn't/wouldn't pinpoint the IP/mac address of the offending person (if one of us was) it destroyed that dualling group and the account deleted.

Will think on this so more.

Auto punish makes me think of one person being the judge and jury without having to provide proof of the violation of the game rules.

To add to this...Here’s a couple of my concerns..

- By accepting a punishment, you basically accept that you violated the rules.

- I have a feeling that staff will “forget” or be really slow at responding to people afterwards and try to just ignore them till you stop bothering them, kinda like it is at the moment.

- Also still missing clarification of what will happen if you accept the punishment, starts rebuilding, only to be found innocent later.

Hello all,

Some of you had questions regarding the new system, so we have made an Q&A, and you can find it here.

FYI on the French S1 a massive failure means dozens of players were blocked for falsly using scripts or bots, etc.

Some of which, as myself, did not even know what any of these words mean.

In short it leads to killing the game with a 50% penalty and somehow impacting dozens of innocents.

I guess the new system is not up to point.

Aside, with no appeal, all innocents are purely blocked.

Even if not using gold I decided to launch a personal litigation procedure with Travian Games. On moral prejudice grounds.

That's what this New system leads to when implemented, a simple feedback from France.

Well something, somehow went wrong at some moment.

But hey it was only about 20% of players lol

Exactly !

Plus maybe only specific to my case but stress issues triggered by this unfair ans unbacked false accusations of cheating

I heard that a ban wave went out on anglo domain too - with false-positives too.

If I understand correctly, the ban and issuing of penalty will happen simultaneously - you will receive the violation message/ban and immediately after you will see the pop-up window (when you do an action in game) which lets you take the penalty and continue playing. This might not be a popular opinion here but I think one of the biggest punishment and deterrent against cheating was NOT the punishment itself but the opportunity cost of idle time (and I guess the hassle to communicate with the MH) whilst under the ban. So, although this may ease the pain of false bans, it may also encourage cheating.

hmmm

False positives does not sound good

Might need to take a closer look at the detection method for this new process

Automation of any process could free up precious resources - the time of mh (volunteers) and paid support people.

From following this thread I have begun to wonder how much time voluntèers invest to facilitate the game many of us seem to enjoy.

We need to applaud the wish to improve the current system to benefit the community.

I feel in agreement with Obi that being able to take the ban will encourage cheating. Maybe those accounts who accept immediately could be put on a watch list? To be reviewed again

Eh i think losing a decent chunk of stuff is just as big a penalty as being stuck doing nothing.

Also as a small note, just because someone says that their are false bans doesn't necessarily make it true, I'm not going to say if it's true or not, because i don't know, but some people who get banned tend to do the whole Parade to try and get themselves free of a ban (at least from my experience on other gaming forums)

JasonWazza wrote:

Eh i think losing a decent chunk of stuff is just as big a penalty as being stuck doing nothing.

Also as a small note, just because someone says that their are false bans doesn't necessarily make it true, I'm not going to say if it's true or not, because i don't know, but some people who get banned tend to do the whole Parade to try and get themselves free of a ban (at least from my experience on other gaming forums)

As long as it is not a penalty for troops, it is not something that a few gold and a mild alliance push cannot solve within a day or two. Idle time is something you cannot revert. This system seems to help eliminate the idle time. I agree with your latter point though.