Anomander Rake: The Invincible WWK

  • Love you too <3

    You are too awesome for me to be mad at.

    "...If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken

    Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools..."


    ~That's a fine looking high horse~

  • He talked about a guy selling arties (I don't know if the guy actually did such a thing, it is Obi assertion)

    Cris, not all accusations are throwing mud. Yes I did accuse Vices for many things. Account buying (well at least trial) DID happen and I offered to show proofs. PlannedDownTime’s ban happened right after he was reported and nobody pushed back on that accusation on the forum. I explained a million times about Tinky’s account yet you guys keep bringing it up, it was an MM to point out and tease general usage of techs from V. I don’t care to know what accounts are actually techs, and which ones are reals since you also admitted that you have too many. Similarly Jin’s 30 friends appearing in arties time is something I will keep criticizing and accusing you for ruining the game.


    In general, someone pointing out your wrongdoings and, putting it mildly, stretching the game rules to your liking is not equal to baseless accusations or being toxic. Just because you were upset, it does not mean that you are right. Your only argument against all these points were “But SGR is doing too, you hypocrite!”. And yes, some is happening (although not to this extent) in SGR too and yes, I am actually bothered unlike you, that it happens and doing my best to prevent it from happening in SGR.


    It is not toxic to mention the cheaters in your team or game abusing tactics like techs. It is rather toxic to attack someone’s real life personality by mocking someone’s nationality, mental state or sexuality. Except Luke (for which I have a high respect for him) and Loffe (and thanks for doing that) nobody even acknowledged how ridiculous these were.


    Anyway, I don’t intent to further discussing the old stuff that we already talked about months ago.

    Noel, 8:13 PM

    She breaks my heart, I break their armies

  • Cris, not all accusations are throwing mud. Yes I did accuse Vices for many things. Account buying (well at least trial) DID happen and I offered to show proofs. PlannedDownTime’s ban happened right after he was reported and nobody pushed back on that accusation on the forum. I explained a million times about Tinky’s account yet you guys keep bringing it up, it was an MM to point out and tease general usage of techs from V. I don’t care to know what accounts are actually techs, and which ones are reals since you also admitted that you have too many. Similarly Jin’s 30 friends appearing in arties time is something I will keep criticizing and accusing you for ruining the game.


    In general, someone pointing out your wrongdoings and, putting it mildly, stretching the game rules to your liking is not equal to baseless accusations or being toxic. Just because you were upset, it does not mean that you are right. Your only argument against all these points were “But SGR is doing too, you hypocrite!”. And yes, some is happening (although not to this extent) in SGR too and yes, I am actually bothered unlike you, that it happens and doing my best to prevent it from happening in SGR.


    It is not toxic to mention the cheaters in your team or game abusing tactics like techs. It is rather toxic to attack someone’s real life personality by mocking someone’s nationality, mental state or sexuality. Except Luke (for which I have a high respect for him) and Loffe (and thanks for doing that) nobody even acknowledged how ridiculous these were.


    Anyway, I don’t intent to further discussing the old stuff that we already talked about months ago.

    Obi my post was how a toxic environment is going to be set up. I dont mind pointing finger account who actually was banned (anomander was banned too, he had a bigger loss of pop than Pdt), what I don't like is reading a non context accusation like you did by insinuating.

    We can discuss for long what playing for proper benefit means in a team game and we will probably disagree. Just don't forget that your interpretation of that rule is your interpretation, not necessarly the spirit of the rule.

    I dont get offended, but you (you personally) started creating a toxic environment this round. And if I can find Batman funny, I didnt find and I dont find funny your attempte to always inserting in every sentence some insinuation, like you just did and like you did the whole round.

    And yes there is dirt in every alliance Vices, SGR and TEN (I guess in LL too).

    I would have loved a less heaten round this time but it didnt happened.

    Pleased to meet you
    Hope you guess my name
    But what's puzzling you
    Is the nature of my game


    (Sympathy for the Devil, Rolling Stones, ages ago)


    fnx wrote:

    I have to admit last year Villains played cleaner than us

    Post was edited 1 time, last by cris@ ().

  • think the worst I did was called loffe a bread loffe

    Thats super toxic, cmon Bat Man.

  • what I don't like is reading a non context accusation like you did by insinuating.

    Well, I cannot help you if you don't want to hear someone pointing out problems in the game and how some of your players are practicing it (similar to some in SGR too). There was a single thread to discuss all the issues in com1 for throughout the server so I do not understand how one can post something that is not out of the context. And not all my posts are about accusing Vices, there is a fair amount of acknowledgement for the successes too.

    Just don't forget that your interpretation of that rule is your interpretation, not necessarly the spirit of the rule.

    The rule is crystal clear to me. Tech by definition is not playing for its benefit. We have just seen Verdie's post confessing to not playing for its own benefit. But yes, feel free to spin it around. Either way, why is discussing this issue or disagreeing means being toxic?

    I dont get offended, but you (you personally) started creating a toxic environment this round.

    I did not only put some insinuation, I also blatantly pointed fingers at some people who break rules. So would you personally prefer that we just ignore all these problems that make people hate the game? I am not going to pretend that these are not problems at all because these really are and people cry about it non-stop on Skype and Discord. Instead of accusing me for bringing these issues up on the forum which started the debate and I guess the toxic environment, try to acknowledge them and do something about these instead of "you do too" or "you create toxic environment" so that these do not come up in the first place?

    It is true that burying your head under the sand will help you create less toxic environment, but it does not necessarily mean that it is the right thing to do.

    Noel, 8:13 PM

    She breaks my heart, I break their armies

  • How do you know I'm burying my head? Do you think that poisoning and intoxicating a forum just help in clearing the way of playing? Do you think your interpretation of part of rule is the only real one? How do you know how we and I deal with a lot of dirt?

    You're just using against a part in game the "so called" interest for the fair game. In a thread open by a banned account (and the fact that it was banned and unbanned does not interest me, he paid for his rule violation in my opinion).

    Pleased to meet you
    Hope you guess my name
    But what's puzzling you
    Is the nature of my game


    (Sympathy for the Devil, Rolling Stones, ages ago)


    fnx wrote:

    I have to admit last year Villains played cleaner than us

  • The rule is crystal clear to me. Tech by definition is not playing for its benefit. We have just seen Verdie's post confessing to not playing for its own benefit. But yes, feel free to spin it around. Either way, why is discussing this issue or disagreeing means being toxic?

    I literally never play for my own benefit. I play for my alliance to win. That is the goal, and I do everything I can to accomplish it.


    I hero cleared oasis in the first few days so other members could raid the res. Does that make me a tech?

    I helped clear UD and I never used it. Does that make me a tech?

    I stole LB and gave them to a defender. Does that make me a tech?

    I built up a SH village with TC 20 and let alliance use it for an arti home village. Does that make me a tech?

    I helped feed several Grey zone hammers that had their caps smashed. Does that make me a tech?

    I built up a village and let luke chief it for UD effect for grey zone troops. Does that make me a tech?

    I sent luke crop anytime that village was close to starving. Does that make me a tech?

    I sent defense to other accounts that DC called and let my own account get hit. Does that make me a tech?

    I pushed resources/let people raid me when they had Trainer** artis. Does that make me a tech?

    I sent attacks on several players that I was in no danger of being attacked by. Does that make me a tech?


    All of these are very normal things that players do. I guarantee 90% of players have done something that benefits an alliance member over their own.


    Where is the line here?

  • Ultimately it's a game changer Tinky, I get that your allegiance is strong towards your alliance and it's all for the bigger picture, but players are sacrificing standard game play so account/s can be utilized in the best interests of a wwk/r.


    Playing vices means having to employ these tactics large scale, just to stay tech savvy and stay in the game. Many players believe that an account should be played for its own benefit first whilst serving an alliance not the other way round.


    It seems like the definition of the rule has been twisted to allow many accounts to be used to benefit a single account creating a seemingly unfair advantage.


    In traditional servers most alliances don't really exploit this type of tactic. To stay competitive with vices means other alliances also need to employ the tech tactic on a large scale, why hasn't it become vastly used by most alliances yet ?


    It's not a complicated question that needs a complicated answer. It's just something most players haven't signed up for. Players are opting not to go against vices and teams don't want to play vices anymore because it means having to warp definitions of the game in order to stay competitive, as opposed to being able to enjoy and play an account for its own merit as part of an alliance and in the best interests of the game.

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    Post was edited 1 time, last by Bat Man ().

  • Wow. This has been the biggest stretch of the interpretation I have seen. We went through this many times already.


    Helping others is not equal to being tech, like you said, you need to help your alliance. In my book, teching is when you build an account to settle in 300/300 and sim fields to 21 just so that you have no other strategy but to let another pre-determined account raids you dry (or store troops). And no, casual 200 phalanx training does not cut it. Basically if one account acts like an extension of another account from the very beginning, it is problematic. Well, I guess not for future reference after the change of rules.

    Noel, 8:13 PM

    She breaks my heart, I break their armies

  • players are sacrificing standard game play so account/s can be utilized in the best interests of a wwk/r.

    What is standard game play? Everyone plays differently.

    Yet Verdie has been attacked because He chose to play differently than you? Many people have time struggles.

    Are you really telling someone that they can't play a game with their friends if they don't have the time to play the way you expect them to?

    the definition of the rule has been twisted to allow many accounts to be used to benefit a single account

    He also defended many people including myself. I don't think that is the definition of 'benefiting a single account'.

    In traditional servers most alliances don't really exploit this type of tactic. To stay competitive with vices means other alliances also need to employ the tech tactic on a large scale, why hasn't it become vastly used by most alliances yet ?

    The idea of Garage accounts has been around since before T3.6. I guarantee there is at least 1 tech being used in every top 5 alliance on every server

    It's just something most players haven't signed up for. Players are opting not to go against vices and teams don't want to play vices anymore because it means having to warp definitions of the game in order to stay competitive

    "i dnt registar on game for tihs. Vice keep halpin each othr. unfair tictacs. i quit" - tonzo 2019


    Wow. This has been the biggest stretch of the interpretation I have seen...


    **PROCEEDS TO STRETCH INTERPRETATION**

    :/

  • What is the "standard game play" and what is the account benefit?

    As far as I can understand "standard game play" for WWk/r require raiding inactive. Who decide that this is a standard game play? I can argue that having account with 5 duals (to send farmlist every 5 minutes) is a unfair advantage too (not going to do that).This game is beautiful because there is not a "standard" game play but it offer a large wide of possibilities to be played. Reducing it to somenthing simple and standard is depriving it. You dont have all equal player who can do all the same thing. Real people have different time, budget to invest in the game, ideas, skills.

    Let's come to the account benefit, in a team game. What is the own benefit? Winning medals? Being 1st in pop rank? Having a very good cropper? Using arties? Winning a server?

    For a defensive account his proper benefit can be selfdefending when under attack. So whenever there is an OP all defensive account should selfdefend according a very strict interpretation of rule 1.1. Otherwise they are cheating. Does that makes sense?

    Or where are the border between account benefit and alliance team play?

    Is it ok forcing all player in alliance to push trainer? Or pushing trainer is not something a single account directly benefit? If I play as scouter do I directly beefit from my scouts? Is a WWk/r a benefit for the whole alliance or only for the player that actually makes it?

    Those are the usual question, not particularly related to this round though.

    Cause sadly we won largely before launching our giant WWk/R.

    Pleased to meet you
    Hope you guess my name
    But what's puzzling you
    Is the nature of my game


    (Sympathy for the Devil, Rolling Stones, ages ago)


    fnx wrote:

    I have to admit last year Villains played cleaner than us

  • The idea of Garage accounts has been around since before T3.6. I guarantee there is at least 1 tech being used in every top 5 alliance on every server

    "i dnt registar on game for tihs. Vice keep halpin each othr. unfair tictacs. i quit" - tonzo 2019


    :/

    And I can guarantee unless your in tourny other teams aren't called in to question half as much and don't use them anywhere near as prolifically.


    Sooo Where do you draw the line then ?

    Is it when other teams condemn the style or when players and teams refuse to play against you (cwl)?


    You guys boast the wwk's you didn't have to use, when the level of competition is clearly slipping, there are even sgr players that don't wish to return to be a garage or exploit this kind of tactic.


    I guess the real question is what can really be gained from victory if vices competition is no longer present to play ?



    # ten # lowlands etc all moving.. Mazzi is stubborn so won't budge otherwise you'd practically be playing with yourselves assuming you return again to com1..

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    Post was edited 1 time, last by Bat Man ().

  • It's the same damn arguments as always, but sure, let's repeat them again.


    The idea of Garage accounts has been around since before T3.6. I guarantee there is at least 1 tech being used in every top 5 alliance on every server

    I garaged 30k swords last round for about 20 days near the end of the server, because we held LD and had excessive production in cap. The difference is, the account was not made from day 1 with the sole purpose of storing 200k imperians of a WWK. I don't mind circumstancial garaging - i.e. someone splatting a hammer and storing some troops while rebuilding or similar. Which is why I tried helping BlackBlade to get TG to implement limitations to garaging offensive troops (our suggestion was something like only allowing garaging of 20k foreign offensive troops), to go along with the alliance pushing restrictions already in place.


    For all teams having at least 1 tech - perhaps. The difference is, most of the other teams have a large part of their members who would prefer if the team played without them, and the use of them is highly limited. Meanwhile, Villains have, what? 8-9 WWR/WWKs solely made by teching?


    As far as I can understand "standard game play" for WWk/r require raiding inactive. Who decide that this is a standard game play?

    The fact that there is a farmlist...? And that there is a natural limit to what resources an account can produce on its own? On the other hand, TG have automatically enforced pushing protection rules in place - i.e. it was not intended gameplay that WWKs are built from the resources of a couple of friendly accounts supplying hundreds of millions of resources.



    But anyway, you won the "argument" - TG agrees with you that this should be the way to play the game apparently. That doesn't mean that we have to approve of it, sorry.



    "i dnt registar on game for tihs. Vice keep halpin each othr. unfair tictacs. i quit" - tonzo 2019

    Yes, congratulations on driving players away from a game that is already severely struggling with a dwindling playerbase. It's incredible how short-sighted this is. Good luck on finding competition in the future for a 200-man meta outside tournament and perhaps .ru servers. But maybe since you guys love simming for 220 days, you'd prefer to sit in an uninterrupted mastubatory circle anyway? Just won't have anything to hit with those 1m WWKs though...





    To spare myself the time, I'll just quote my other post here:

  • I was a happy and driven tech and now there is so much hate. ;(

    Also, if I suggested to you that I could settle a good cropper close to you to support you building a great WWK, including spending a lot of time, gold and defending it and other accounts in the ally for the benefit of your acc and our ally in end game - would you say no? You haven't asked me to do it, I just want to do it because I don't have 100% time to play any different style than medioker support and def. Would you? (If you say no I don't believe you) I enjoyed being a part of something bigger than just a bad 150k def acc.


    Ps. my tech tactic didn't involve any garaging. ds


    Also, I doubt you would treat me with respect so I would never be your tech. :thumbsup:

  • (If you say no I don't believe you)

    You think with what I just posted above, that I don't like techs, just because no one has offered to do it? lol... I don't mind people bringing along a defensive account or two so they have defense close by. In any team I lead though, defense is always alliance defense, even if belonging to PDs. I do mind accounts being ran solely to circumvent the normal limits of resources available to an account though, and I won't play that way, nor will I want any team I'm in to play that way.



    including spending a lot of time, gold

    because I don't have 100% time to play any different style than medioker support and def.

    Which one is it? :/



    I enjoyed being a part of something bigger than just a bad 150k def acc.

    So this is how your WWKs and their techs tend to view the average players? Nice. I hope it's limited to your little circle and not seen as such by DC, WW crew and other leaders in Villains too.




    Also, I doubt you would treat me with respect so I would never be your tech.

    I treat my teammates with respect - seemingly more than you do, judging from above.


    And oh damn, no pro techs for me :( All these years since I saw Sanket's 1m hammer, I've dreamed about someone making tech accounts for me! ;( Surely the only reason why anyone plays without techs is because they can't find anyone willing to do it!

  • Verdie so sorry I named you :*

    # ten # lowlands etc all moving.. Mazzi is stubborn so won't budge otherwise you'd practically be playing with yourselves assuming you return again to com1..

    From what I saw issues between TEN and SGR are not caused by our WWKs. Maybe the fact ex Supermeta lose so badly this round is not all our fault. Last round we analyzed why we lost and we tried to fix it. SGR should do the same instead of blaming everyone beside their poor choices.


    The fact that there is a farmlist...?

    ouch I didnt noticed the big announcement in the rally point that prescribe as mandatory for WWKs to use farmlist ... my bad! Is it in the rules too... let me see a small paragraph written with invisible ink?


    Yes, congratulations on driving players away from a game that is already severely struggling with a dwindling playerbase. It's incredible how short-sighted this is.

    This is the new accusation for us? are we going to see it repeated endlessly? On what basis? the fact that probably Ten will not play com1 anymore? you think is our fault? because we do WWk with real teams?


    BTW what was the accout BADare, a casual account who offered 30k parking to Geko? does she sent a rein instead of a raid and evil VICES had a great luck in killing troops?

    Of course not a tech, not even in alliance... a brother maybe?


    Pleased to meet you
    Hope you guess my name
    But what's puzzling you
    Is the nature of my game


    (Sympathy for the Devil, Rolling Stones, ages ago)


    fnx wrote:

    I have to admit last year Villains played cleaner than us

  • ouch I didnt noticed the big announcement in the rally point that prescribe as mandatory for WWKs to use farmlist ... my bad! Is it in the rules too... let me see a small paragraph written with invisible ink?

    Nice work on taking a single sentence out of the entire argument and replying to that, while ignoring the rest. You don't have to farm as a WWK, but you will have to if you want to exceed what resources are naturally available to the account on its own. I'll quote the part you ignored so I don't have to repeat myself:


    And that there is a natural limit to what resources an account can produce on its own? On the other hand, TG have automatically enforced pushing protection rules in place - i.e. it was not intended gameplay that WWKs are built from the resources of a couple of friendly accounts supplying hundreds of millions of resources.


    This is the new accusation for us? are we going to see it repeated endlessly? On what basis? the fact that probably Ten will not play com1 anymore? you think is our fault? because we do WWk with real teams?

    No, I said the same last server too. Based on the fact that many players do not wish to play on the same server as Villains. Based on the fact that many of my friends are complaining about techs and quitting the game over it (and personally I feel very little inclined to return to the game, even less and less with the rampant spread in teching and TG approving of it). Based on the fact that I follow other communities too, and see the reaction by large parts of the playerbase to techs. Based on the fact that I know players left Villains over techs and passive gameplay resulting from simming tech WWKs and nothing else.



    BTW what was the accout BADare, a casual account who offered 30k parking to Geko? does she sent a rein instead of a raid and evil VICES had a great luck in killing troops?

    Of course not a tech, not even in alliance... a brother maybe?

    Why are you even deflecting the argument with this? You openly and proudly talk about your techs, so why this pathetic attempt at misdirecting? Again, repeating myself:


    For all teams having at least 1 tech - perhaps. The difference is, most of the other teams have a large part of their members who would prefer if the team played without them, and the use of them is highly limited. Meanwhile, Villains have, what? 8-9 WWR/WWKs solely made by teching?

    For what the nature of that account is, you will have to ask Geko herself :) But you don't care anyway, you only use it to avoid the substance of the argument.

  • Why are you even deflecting the argument with this? You openly and proudly talk about your techs, so why this pathetic attempt at misdirecting? Again, repeating myself:

    I'm not deflecting, I admit that I consider team playing 3 people building a wwk with different account. You can call it whatever you want. Till when there are real people playing, I'm completely ok with this. Note that verdie/Jp and the other were alwayis in the alliance, and they dont raid... so a bit hard for them to circumvent the pushing protection system. And we talk abot 3 good account, producing deffs over building a 950k roman hammer.

    As well as I'm ok if someone want to build a WWK by raiding inactive.

    I just want to point out that SGR rammer and the invicible WWKs has been made both using helping friend. For Geko an helping friends outside ally that never been in, So is not 1 tech, is half of your endgame hammer made the same way (at least).

    Some villains player move, it is normal, people have the rights to change. SGR players change as well and come to us too. It is simply normal.


    Think about how badly you lost this round and it was not for how we build our endgame hammers, this seems to me a way to divert from your real problem.

    Pleased to meet you
    Hope you guess my name
    But what's puzzling you
    Is the nature of my game


    (Sympathy for the Devil, Rolling Stones, ages ago)


    fnx wrote:

    I have to admit last year Villains played cleaner than us

  • As I already said:


    But anyway, you won the "argument" - TG agrees with you that this should be the way to play the game apparently. That doesn't mean that we have to approve of it, sorry.


    Some villains player move, it is normal, people have the rights to change. SGR players change as well and come to us too. It is simply normal.

    Again ignoring the point. I won't repeat it, you can go re-read it.




    I just want to point out that SGR rammer and the invicible WWKs has been made both using helping friend. For Geko an helping friends outside ally that never been in, So is not 1 tech, is half of your endgame hammer made the same way (at least).

    I already replied to this too, again, deflecting.


    Anomander benefitted from storing resources in their "techs", but gathered the resources themselves, and, was in fact, meant to prove how ridicolous the teching is if taken to their max (well, baring that they were actually raiding actively, instead of just getting res from the techs like your WWKs). And guess what? Villains spent literally the entire round complaining about "Anomander Fake".




    Think about how badly you lost this round and it was not for how we build our endgame hammers, this seems to me a way to divert from your real problem.

    Kinda hard for me to lose a round I didn't play :) Even if I had been playing, it wouldn't divert from my real problem, because the issue we're discussing is tech accounts (in case you forgot, which it seems).

  • Villains spent literally the entire round complaining about "Anomander Fake".

    The complaint was that people from SGR is trying to see Villians as the cheaters & SGR are the saints in reality both abuse techs.
    (Alot of people including myself don't like hypocrits)
    If you can't see that you have your head very deep down in the sand & it's no point to argue further.