Next workshop preparation

  • Can you ask TG why they thought offering 50p worth of office supplies was a great reward worth letting everyone know about? I mean, did someone honestly think, 'yeah I bet the players will love that'?

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    Travian reports died so my cool record WWK report is gone forever. What am I supposed to show off now???

  • I'm going to give an unpopular opinion.


    I think the chiefing mechanic should be eliminated. at the very least severely nerfed.

    now you can ignore this, but that will be to travian's detriment

    currently it allows for and easy takeover with attacks spaced within a minute of each other.

    the biggest problem with chiefing is it isn't used to takeover villages of players of equal standing. it's used to harass and bully everyone smaller than you.

    I'm sure the veteran players here in the forum will disagree with something like "but it's a war game". that doesn't mean the game should be designed to stroke their micro sized ego.

    Travian needs to be a game that can pick up new players, not cater to an ever shrinking population of "veterans". keep catering to the douchebags and that's all that will be left. in another 5 years this game will either be dead or played on a -100 to +100 map with only half the number of servers. That starts with disincentivizing picking on new or small players. at present time it isn't worth it to join more than 2 weeks after server start and anyone who does will quickly ragequit. hell, fall behind for a week or get placed in an unfortunate area and that's going to happen anyways.


    if you want travian to grow its player base you need to start thinking of ways to actually do that. as long as douchebags are incentivised to be such, your game population is going to keep shrinking. at no point should stealing or catting a village be done with a single small string of attacks. it should take days if at all. limits on the number of chiefs that can affect a village, harsh diminishing returns with a 2 day timer, and a scaling of loyalty lowered by moral/pop difference (these can also be done with cats).


    This is essentially how warcraft 3 operated. in a game that lasts for an hour battles shouldn't be over in a few seconds. in a game that lasts months a village steal/kill shouldn't be over in a few hours. furthermore allowing large early server start players to bully and harass new/casual/late to server start players means you won't have any of those people playing your game. ignore this at your own peril. (and yes, cheating is the other big issue)

  • I'm going to give an unpopular opinion...

    I agree to a certain extent that chiefing and catapulting new or late starting players can be a problem, but I'm sure most veterans will have been on the receiving end at some point too. The difference is persistence.


    Having said that, bringing on new players is a problem for the game, because you basically join not knowing how anything works, not knowing rules etc, but expected to compete against people who played for years, or worse play against 24hr accounts before you've had a chance to make friends and find night duals/sitters. I think a solution better than stopping chiefing, would be to have mini starter servers for new players to get to grips with it before going into a full server, since the tutorial - while much improved, still doesn't prepare people who don't know what to expect after BP ends

  • I'm going to give an unpopular opinion.

    Yes. Yes you are. One based in your lack of skill/experience, evidently.


    You don't seem to realize that smaller villages/accounts already get a morale bonus that applies to all battles, and lowers the effectiveness of chiefs? You also don't seem to have even the most rudimentary understanding of alliance offensive/defensive tactics if you think catting/chiefing should take days. They're already the slowest troops on the game, which balances them just fine.


    You do know that you can choose to settle your second village in a place that isn't full of more active players? Or hadn't you considered that yet? I started on AS3 a month late, I don't use techs/multis and my rankings on the 'general' tab are higher than most. If you start late ofc those who started on time have an advantage, if you're good though, it's not enough for them.



    Here's a link to a game that seems to be more along the lines of what you're looking for:


    https://store.steampowered.com…SimCity_4_Deluxe_Edition/



    I agree to a certain extent that chiefing and catapulting new or late starting players can be a problem, but I'm sure most veterans will have been on the receiving end at some point too. The difference is persistence.

    I think a solution better than stopping chiefing, would be to have mini starter servers for new players to get to grips with it before going into a full server, since the tutorial - while much improved, still doesn't prepare people who don't know what to expect after BP ends

    I do like your idea of a kind of 'beginner' server, but how do we make sure only actual beginners use it? Also, without veteran players, you'd potentially have people giving advice to other players who really really shouldn't be.

    Old UK forum awards:

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    Travian reports died so my cool record WWK report is gone forever. What am I supposed to show off now???

  • I didn't really think it through properly but a beginner server could have maximum number of villages, or maximum troops, or could be vs natars only where natars raid or catapult at a specific interval, either by time or by a certain level of development (e.g. 3rd village), something along those lines could work so that people would talk to each other and still have to work as a team. Such a server might not even need to end, it could just be there all the time, and at a certain level you get kicked off it once you reach a certain level, e.g. defence points, off points, or chief a natars villa or something. I'm sure others will have better or more ideas.

  • Or maybe making a singleplayer type of Travian game to play offline with a simulation of different experience levels and tutorials. At least you don't need to spend years playing servers where you will be farmed until you have an idea how to play.


    Only problem will be less farms on normal servers, but travian has already changed to a game where farming nature, natars and inactives is the only effective way of stealing resources.

    "Over iets nadenken zonder het per definitie waar hoeft te zijn is een vorm van ontwikkeling."

  • and you seem to be giving an opinion based on your lack of real world skill and experience. perhaps you should play other games than travian. it might help with your pea sized world view.

    you don't seem to realize that this game is played in real time, with people that have to sleep, and have jobs. at no point should you wake up to find your account decimated simply because you couldn't be there. a sitter isn't the answer. there's no telling how active they can be on your account for a whole variety of reasons. and unlike every other non-browser strategy game travian doesn't play for an hour, or for even days. it goes on for months,


    and I agree some people shouldn't be giving any kind of advice. especially if they are so locked in a tradition that is killing the game. or are sadistic to the point where the only pleasure they can get is to bully those around them. if you had bothered to actually read and listen to my post you might have realized that I was suggesting a change to the meta. it takes days or weeks to fully build up a village, having it be able to disappear in a few short hours is a terrible meta.


    Travian needs a meta change. it's pacing in this area is woefully out of sync with reality. and if it does not change the player base will continue to shrink. I am not asking for a beginner server, and that will not solve this problem.


    PS for the record. the morale bonus is fairly worthless unless you are a tenth the size of the opponent, and it does absolutely nothing when struck by 10 chiefs within a few hours. a second village placement still doesn't affect where your first is. And good for you, I'm sure that's why people that fall behind or don't have as many hours to pump into this game stick with it until the end. oh wait, they don't. they ditch the server in droves, either starting another one, or leaving for good, and leaving the previous full of in-actives with barely enough players to form 4 full alliances

    Post was edited 1 time, last by GBG ().

  • A beginner's server is actually something I discussed a lot with previous ambassadors (ELE and BB), but indeed, the implementation is hard, and I am not sure how big the interest is from TG.

    We have discussed the idea somewhere between LoT 2018 and 2019. Issue is... how to select who can join and who cannot? We have enough "pro"s who would love to invade such servers to gain an easy win and still be proud.


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    "Between impulse and action there is a realm of good taste begging for your acquaintance."
    (the doctor, voy4/25)

  • We have discussed the idea somewhere between LoT 2018 and 2019. Issue is... how to select who can join and who cannot? We have enough "pro"s who would love to invade such servers to gain an easy win and still be proud.

    I have several ideas on how you can set this up.
    Most importantly, it is not about who can join and who can't, its about how those who join will play the game.

    In general there should be mechanics in place that:

    - discourage metas, specifically meta vs non-meta situations

    - encourage education of new players by other real players

    - encourage regular activity

    - limit gold usage (you really have to make sure the new players aren't intimidated by the spenders)

    - encourage some gold purchase and usage

    - discourage "bulying"

    - encourage team based efforts

    - break the game up in clearer phases

    - protect the player during offline periods


    For most of these things there are good examples already in place in other games. However, those games often times just completely fail in other aspects.


    So here is how I think we can address these issues. (assuming travian in its current state, so not the PTR situation)

    Discourage metas:
    I honestly don't really know how to do this. For every fix I can think of I can already think of a way to circumvent it.


    Encourage education:
    Create "mentors" these are people with experience, either determined by qualifications in actual game rounds, quizzes, or just by experience (like the medals). The latter would exclude myself since I switched emails so I doubt its a good measure.
    Mentors would earn gold or awards based on how well the new players rate them. (In a certain other game I used to play mentors were rewarded credits that they could use to name game elements (items, locations, factions) the next round.)


    Encourage regular activity:

    I've played a game that allowed you to collect hourly rewards up to X times each day (4 times I believe). You only had to logon to claim them. I think that would be a good mechanic if the rewards were either consistent cycle like the daily rewards, or fixed like 50 silver. You could try something like Kingdoms has, where every 12 hours you get a random quest to do a very basic task (train X troops, kill X troops, perform X raids, trade X resources, do X trades, grow X pop, etc) and reward them with 100, 150, or 200 silver.

    The current daily quests are okay, but they require more than 1 logon per day to achieve. This means that if someone has a bad day, they get discouraged when they logon cause they already know they can't do enough to get that first reward.


    Limit gold usage:

    On a newbie friendly server we want everyone to feel like they are on-par with one another and that the benefits everyone gets are based on skill rather than premium features.

    I think we can make this happen by limiting the AH gold to silver conversion, the instant complete and NPC usage.


    Encourage some gold usage and purchase:

    Reward players with gold that expires. This will ensure usage.

    More limited time promotions on that game world. Now this is going to sound a bit evil but we're trying to get people hooked on the game and its premium features, this is just business.
    Promotions should apply big discounts to small packages so that the gold you get per, lets say, euro is roughly equal to what you get when you would buy the biggest packet during a holiday sale.

    They should also be available for a very limited amount of time, making use of psychological features that compel people to buying.

    These small promotions will introduce the player to the benefits of gold and encourage future purchases. They will be more and more open to purchasing gold out of sale.

    Now if Travian would decide against this for moral reasons I would absolutely applaud that. I am just throwing these ideas out there because I know they work.


    Discourage "bullying":

    One feature that I dislike, but I know to be very effective is by straight up disallowing conflict between players that are too far apart. Lets say 10 fold difference in power or pop would disallow any combat between the two.

    War would ofc be an exception. If your ally is at war with another ally these restrictions should not apply.


    Encourage team based efforts:

    The faction system. I love that system. It allows lots of people to win and encourages people to play together.

    You could enforce it a bit more. You start in a faction, you stay in that faction, you win with that faction or you lose. There should be democratically elected faction leaders who can eject you if you are found guilty of spying or other malicious activity that goes against the faction.
    In a normal world you could have 4 or 8 factions depending on map size. Each faction spawns around their own coordinate, lets say 100|100 in each corner, instead of all around the grey area.


    Break the game up in clearer phases:
    Make clearer separations for early game goals.

    First village is indeed important to get. Explain to the newbies WHY it is important and why it will characterize their early game.

    Explain why it is important to have troops BEFORE they get turned into farms. Give examples of what is achievable in those first weeks and what they should look out for.

    Teach them how to make themselves uninteresting targets, not only with troops but also with the wall, the residence, and crannies.


    Protect the player while offline:
    Now this sounds absolutely absurd but can be very good for newbie friendliness.

    One of the ways to do this is through night truce / night pause servers. On these servers there is a fixed period (usually 8 hours) during which there is no combat (truce) or just nothing at all (pause). This will make the game feel less straining to the new player. Another, softer way to do this is by allowing players to set "reinforced" periods. These are 2 periods of 6 hours or 1 of 8 during which the player gets a serious defense bonus. This last one would be most valuable to players who want to play travian alongside their work, they could set their first 6h period to be their last 6h of sleep and their second 6h period to be the last 6h of their shift.


    Now I know most of these suggestions would require a lot of work and are not feasible for the foreseeable future, but even a few of them could really help new players stick with the game.



    Finally a half joke.

    If you really want to teach the basics of travian to someone who never played it before, tell them to go play Kingdoms for a month. Then tell them to come here and play with the big boys.

  • A mentor system (wtih or without a beginners' server) is something me and my team have been working on for months. Unfortunately, eventually we could not come up with a satisfying idea. I remember that TG was all for it and encouraged us to think it through and forward our suggestions.

    If you want to have a try Wychor please contact the ambassador of your domain and work out your idea in details. I am sure TG will gladly listen to your suggestion.


    banner-Nut-The-Squirrels.png


    "Between impulse and action there is a realm of good taste begging for your acquaintance."
    (the doctor, voy4/25)

  • Beginner server is a terrible idea. Don't separate your playerbase even further. Also, how are you going to replace leaving players in your "veteran" alliance?

    1. Come up with reasons why it would be bad instead of a unsupported statement.

    2. Come up with an alternative.

    3. You can't replace veterans, you can only create new veterans by educating new players. Everyone was a noob at some point, nobody joined and was instantly a veteran. Most of these games have a hard core that will likely always remain and a high turnover of new players of which only a few will stick. The best bet is to increase the amount that will stick with the game.

    4. You can't entirely avoid players leaving. People leave often not because the game changed, but because they changed. They'll often list things that they think are wrong with the game but most of the time those are just excuses. Every time I left wasn't cause I disliked the game, it was just that other things were taking priority which meant I could no longer play at the level I'd like to.

    A mentor system (wtih or without a beginners' server) is something me and my team have been working on for months. Unfortunately, eventually we could not come up with a satisfying idea. I remember that TG was all for it and encouraged us to think it through and forward our suggestions.

    If you want to have a try Wychor please contact the ambassador of your domain and work out your idea in details. I am sure TG will gladly listen to your suggestion.

    Thank you, I will.

  • ...Here we go again. For the record, I agree with you that there should be mechanics in place to promote/improve these points you listed:


    Although I disagree with you on how to do it. In order to discourage metas, the game needs to encourage/reward smaller alliances, tightknit organisation (harder to do well in metas) and all-round account activity instead of having most of the players in an alliance doing nothing, the latter being typical of meta player activity levels. If the game can change in a way that everyone in an alliance wants to do things, you will see less metas since in metas you typically have no choice but to do nothing and/or follow the alliance instead of, say, attacking your neighbour because you feel like it. With lots of "regular activity" you will also automatically see a few more people trying to help new players in their alliance, because they need those new players more. In other words, come up with things that make the game more fun for every type of player. Separate out things players like to do per type of players who play this game. Then improve them, or come up with new things that specific group of players would find interesting/fun to do. More ways to build your account, more ways to fight or new scarce things to fight over, a new endgame...This is the type of thing you would need to look into.


    I don't think you can do much else to incentivize veteran players to help new players. Either someone is the type who will do that, or he isn't. How you would "create mentors" out of thin air is beyond me. You can designate someone to be a mentor all you want, if that player isn't interested in doing it he isn't going to do any mentoring, and having a "reward system" will not make him do it. That's just going to reward the few people who were already doing it anyway. Also, sounds like a nicely abusable mechanic depending on how it's implemented...


    I also disagree on any kind of repetitive, boring tasks such as the daily task **** they pulled in Travian Kingdoms. The more NPC type stuff you put into this game, the more people will leave. These things just turn the game into a menial waste of time and take away from the parts of the game that are actually fun. It's the PvP aspect that makes this game unique and that's what you should improve instead to get more regular activity.

    Quote

    I disagree vehemently with the following.


    - discourage "bulying"

    - break the game up in clearer phases

    - protect the player during offline periods

    If you see players being catapulted, or cleared from an area or w/e as "bullying" then you are trying to create some kind of safe space for beginning or simply bad players. You don't want to do that, it removes the possibility for these players to grow and deal with conflict. Conflict is the bread and butter of this game. It's the only reason you ever retain a player. Without it, you would just build up your account until you get bored and then delete since you've done all the static things that don't change in the game. It's the conflict with other players that's always dynamic/new and makes or breaks this game. If there is any core pillar of Travian's identity - this is it. Every idea you design should take this into account.


    I'm not sure what you specifically mean by bullying, but typically when somebody says "bullying" they just mean getting catapulted or raided by stronger players at an inconvenient time on the server...Sorry, but players who think that this is a problem for the game don't live in reality or don't understand this game at all. We used to have servers with 30k players or more. Obivously then, getting raided or catapulted as a beginner which happened a LOT is not a big deal for the game. Never has been, never will be, since it never stopped the game servers from becoming huge. If this happened to you you just started over on the same or another server and adjusted your strategy by moving to a different area, communicating better, putting up crannies so you don't get raided, etc. Even as a veteran player, if I choose to fight over a 15c too early and get destroyed to the point where I have to delete...Who cares? It's not bullying, you just got outplayed and defeated. If you spawn near a veteran player and you get catapulted immediately, you just got outplayed and defeated and you restart. If you can get your first village's settlers out and you choose to stay in your area, near much stronger opponents, you've made a bad strategic decision. You get outplayed and defeated and rightfully so. You delete and restart. Next time, maybe you settle out far away from any danger or get into an alliance more quickly. Now you no longer get outplayed or defeated so early. You've grown. See? How then is what you call bullying a problem?


    If instead you would reall have a "beginners server" (also called Travian Kingdoms), and somehow managed to enforce that truly only new players live there, you will have ZERO ACTIVITY in the entire game round. Nobody does anything. Nobody talks, fights, joins alliances or anything, since hardly anyone knows how to do any of that or is invested enough in the game to do it. You sit in your village, click some stuff, then get bored and delete. Without conflict, nothing happens in this game! Why do you think Kingdoms retains almost no players every game round although it attracts quite a few at the start of a Kingdoms server?


    For some reason, Travian Games and certain players keep focussing on new players and new players only. It seems to be the only thing they understand and In their minds, new players are the players you can retain. So you need to make it as easy as possible for them. As long as it's easy, surely they will stay!! ...;( Not how it works guys. The game needs to be interesting for all kinds of players in order to retain players. Not just for new players. So no, I'm against a beginner's server, or anything else that is purely oriented towards beginners.