Posts by Final Word

    Spawn village, should go marks. They gather more resources now, have same speed and have better def. They are also only 5 less attack per unit than steppes. Marks cost about 200 more per unit but theoretically take less trips to repay themselves than steppes.

    Would pick marks since they raid more and no need for much standing defense if you're worried someone will attack your raiding army in the night.

    I would never propose including wonders lol. I like Special servers especially because they are non-traditional. However the VP system of winning is 3-4 years old now? Maybe time to go back to the drawing board for another unique winning condition.

    My reasoning for choosing not to mess with the server length is because it doesn't fix the problem. It just becomes a scenario that Ele says only with the days adjusted to happen sooner. If it is one team running away with it, they would naturally want the server to end sooner, but what if you're 2nd place with a chance to win, your team would want more time. The tweaking should instead be in finding a proper balance on the map with VP values, and maybe even do some other mechanic where maybe VP doubles or something, or a second winning condition, thus allowing teams that are behind to catch up somehow. But there really is no beatng a team with a solid strategy from start to finish and more gold users than their opponents.

    Red Balloon, you may not know him, but we do. I'm assuming Honeybadgerz is HB, meteo, and someone else. HB: Was banned for botting in last PtP round. He had this issue of never replying to people when you chiefed a farm, even when the account was blue. If an attack passed on said village, another was immediately made. If you blocked one attack it died and no new raids, but when you removed the defense for next attack - new one pops up. Botting. Meteo: This guy is notorious for multi/techs. Ask him for a push and you're suddenly getting not reso from him, but tons of small, nobody accounts all over the map. Story is he uses VPNs to register said accounts, maybe at some computer lab. Their inner circle knows exactly the shenanigans they do, but of course, they're not going to come on forum and say, "Yea, we're blatantly cheating", nor are they always going to be caught by MH because they know the limitations. fnx already said they friendly farm, so what proof you need?

    In my eyes, there is no honor in cheating. I am used to alliances that when they find out players are using proxies, it will result in an imidiate kick and the account will afterwards be destroyed.

    Its probably nessesary on the .com too cheat... Just sad. I would 100% prefer to loose, then to win cheating. (Then again i dont care about endgame)

    It's never necessary to cheat. The problem is defining what cheating is, and then getting leaders to enforce it. But there is a broad spectrum of what players consider cheating, from obvious bot users to raiding techs to pre-arranged garages. You'll never get everyone to agree on a baseline, especially if it meant you had to cut a wwk or two, which can cost you a win. In that scenario its easier to point fingers at the other side than police your own people. TG could help by being better enforcers but MHs are pretty limited these days in what they can do. Even TG staff can't come to an agreement on their own rules.

    Why all the the excitement over GZ positioning? Uniques will just be pushed further out around 50/30s +/- and all the gz accounts last round either went inactive or jumped sides. Will just be more of the same - my prediction.

    I think its a poor excuse to blame the other side for one's own misdeeds. So if VICE wasn't playing in any capacity, SGR would boot people like meteo, hb, arash, etc? Yea, I don't think I'd hold my breath on that. Btw, please don't do the "if you think they cheat go to MH" BS. Some people know fully well what they do and the grey areas they love to play in, being past duals/teammates, etc.

    I agree with you here, and I decided to not talk about anymore, but don't compare Close2Insane to this Honeybadgerz dude.

    Botting, scripting are detectable and will be banned bro. Honeybadgerz is going up by 40K in 1 tick everytime from his multies. He is using mulit's through vpn or tor but its not possible to prove it and you know this, so stop your EDITED

    But like I said, at this point I understand he is cheating and nothing will happen and I'm ok with that. I'm not okay for him getting praise for it, that's just messed up.

    Actually pretty easy to prove.. but it requires someone in the ally.

    I prefer 20 pages

    20 page garbage in this thread and the game is not yet started really. Its just the very early stage.

    Jesus Christ ...

    You guys are worse than my friends in trash talking ...

    I prefer 20 pages of trash talk over 0 pages, as long as it's not all Mad God-level trash talking.

    Well, there is a reason why we have sayings like "there are lies, damned lies, and statistics" when it comes to poring through numbers. They often are superficially interpreted to support someone's conclusion and every conclusion can be different even when looking at the same data. I said before you couldn't really compare the two servers because the context is so different. I will try to explain the situation on "Anglish" (a compromise ;) ) to try to make sense of these stats.*

    *My conclusions of what teams on either server were doing may be incorrect but they are observations made to the best of my knowledge.

    Pre-start situation:

    1) Small Map (401x401)

    2)The "Anglish" server had 4 supposed contenders: TM ( Twelve Monkeys from .com), WB (Wild Bunch/ Mean Girls from .us), TIW ( The Iron Wall from .au), TEAM (from uk.). All came with a full stable of 60+ players except WB (35+?) and TIW (50 or so). TEAM had the most with about two wings of players.

    Early Game

    1. Start Strategy

    TM: We decided to split our people at the start. Several went to NW to get an early start on raiding (since there was more land for players/farms to settle) while rest who weren't so much into raiding, went SW.

    TIW: TIW chose to delay their start and aimed mostly SW - so they ended up mostly in Pisae and Africa

    WB: From what I could tell they spawned in all four quads at middle and spread out from there.

    TEAM: Spawned mostly in NE

    Context: So funnily enough, you had three pre-server contenders making a presence in the SW, leaving a vacuum for smaller teams to populate the other quads. The first differences we noticed from our COM experience is that the noob ring expansion was extremely slow, even for a small map. I believe it was due to lack of bots which on our usual servers would have forced an explosion of expansion at the start, so that we wouldn't have had to delay our starts as much just to get into an area like Carthago, for example. Many of us were forced to start earlier than desired. The second difference: Where were the @#$! croppers? Once again, TM (and by extension WB and TIW) was shafted with a low number of good croppers (125%+) appearing near start zones in SW and only a couple good ones in NW and all were under intense competition even just among our own guys nevermind other teams.

    2. Settling Strategy

    A) Early settling:

    TM: For TM, the start and the early game race for croppers was extremely painful. As mentioned above, good croppers were extremely limited. And PtP introduced its own little wrinkle to allow friendly chiefing with no penalty and the potential for an Egyptian 150% was a great temptation to use this tactic. Personally, I hated this new feature due to all the drama it created and my own principles against such tactics. I believe there were 30 croppers in SW alone that were 100% or more and the few good ones were in Africa - locked away due to the lack of required pop. So when you're presented with 100%+ croppers for just half your team before the cropper race even began, to say I wasn't looking forward to the problems it will cause is an understatement. TM typically starts fast and furious, snapping up croppers and spawning in unlocked regions but because the noob ring was so damn slow, we couldn't settle as fast as we liked. In fact, getting to settlers too fast was a hindrance because you constantly bumped against locked regions, holding settlers and waiting for regions to unlock - but someone had to settle to unlock those regions. So in effect, some of our best simmers didn't even get best croppers. Overall, having 1) 3 decent teams in SW, 2) competitiveness among own teammates, 3) Limited croppers and, 4) PtP Egyptian cap temptation was a recipe for drama, drama, drama.

    As stated, TM split in half more or less, with simmers/non-raiders to the SW and heavy raiders to the NW. Originally, we limited settling in NW to just Pict and August, but players were growing irate over lack of croppers so some went as far north as Trevor, Lutetia, and Durno. Another group went to Africa at earliest chance and tried for croppers there, but had to compete with WB and TIW for good croppers yet to be unlocked. I think many couldnt settle a cropper until villa 3 or really slow simmers with v2. One contingent of our group, a Pinoy group we recruited before the round, opted to aim for Carth and settled v2/v3s there (against the recommendation of leaders, I might add).

    TIW: TIW, from what I could tell as an outside observer, decided to delay their start and settle in Africa (Caesarea, Hippo, Carth, Girba), with Carth as their main, early goal and they hoped to accomplish it with mass settling of the region as soon as it unlocked, unfortunately for them all three SW teams had same idea.

    WB: WB, the SW group at least, wanted Carth just as badly as the rest and also mass settled the region. One player grabbed the coveted 150% Carth cropper before TM and TIW by increasing their TS, im guessing, to at least 15(!). I think they hoped to secure the region pretty quickly, but with all three teams settling in Carth, this expectation proved to be fruitless. Meanwhile, they had no quick access to boots and TM was already pushing cata in Pict. The rest of their team went SE route, but regions like Epi were contested by several other small teams - mostly Cavalon/Camelot.

    TEAM: Team seemed to employ a what I call a "5 point strategy". They had the spawn, central core area, then spread to essentially 4 corners of the map: England regions, SE Jerusalem, NE Hyperborea, etc. (Later some settled in Spain regions in SW). They had more cropper opportunities overall, since more land mass, but maybe spread themselves a little too thin trying to get essential artifacts.

    TM still had the most success in capturing croppers it aimed for. Cathago, however, was a failure, even if it wasn't an original focus of our pre-server strategy. (We wanted to cap settling at as far south as Caesarea and as far north as Pict). WB's best player took the Carth cropper, and both TIW and WB had more defense support in Africa. With our raiders (and thus majority of early hammers) in NW, help was unfortunately too long in coming. The outlook was grim for TM in Carth, especially when many did not have the necessary coverage or activity.

    3. Mid-Game to Present

    Early mid-game, TM had pretty much established itself in SW and NW. WB was still struggling to take Carth even though they had the upper hand in firepower, just they were being matched pop for pop and not able to gain control. TM, meanwhile secured boots early and was jumping up in raiding. Camelot held the other early boots in Epi. Our guys in Africa were also bumping heads with TIW, contesting for Cesarea, Rusadir, Rusicadae. Seeing TM raiding and fast start I guess spurred leadership in WB to consider a merger with Camelot. By this point, Camelot was actually leading in VP simply by holding Delphi early. TM was 2nd, as SW/NW had a lot of small, high vp regions. WB was kind of mired in contested regions, so they merged with Camelot to form KGW (Knights Gone Wild), thus taking Camelot's VP and boots and a clear path through SE, and the WB wing became the secondary KGW2.

    The merger was critical for KGW to compete, but it was still a disappointment to see on our end when we wanted to see the four teams duke it out for bragging rights. The merger essentially changed the dynamics of the server. KGW no longer had their stiffest competition for expansion in their way. They now had the VP lead and could finally operate with boots, which would help in taking the UB region of Carth as well as quicken expansion into SE with the vital Fools regions. Meanwhile, TM, TIW, and TEAM were battling on two fronts each: TM vs TEAM in Spain and NW (our one guy was still holding up in Durno), and TM vs TIW in Pisae/Caesarea/Rusa/Rusic. TIW was fighting KGW in SW/SE Africa, and TEAM was also fighting KGW in NE and other smaller teams in addition to TM.

    So, with TEAM holding three wings at this point (TEAM, TEAM2, TEAM PR) and KGW/KGW2 focusing on TIW, we realized that if we were to continue hitting TIW, we were only aiding KGW as much as ourselves. So for sake of strategy and hoping to kill some KGW hammers, we struck up a partnership with TIW. TIW, for all their efforts, were completely out of the race in their VP/day with no real light at the end of the tunnel, so we adopted them and no longer contested some regions we could've taken from them. Sure, it likely meant less of a challenge, less fun for us but we were barely getting attacked by KGW outside of Carth and offensive guys in TIW were few and far between. We got mocked for our confed of course, but who is to predict what the outcome would've been had we refused any confed, but at the time it felt like a good decision in light of the sudden merger.

    So by now, you're probably thinking: We should have had a lot of attack points, def and off.. but no.. not really. Group ops on PtP were kind of pushed back in favor of more BG style fighting. Defense, early on, even with boots was still too slow to reach areas facing immediate threats - Carth for example. And BGs of 5 or less seemed to be more effective than ally-wide ops over the long term. In addition, the attack styles/skills of each team varied wildly. For example, our presumably fast-to-start off accounts were NW, but they stayed mostly localized, didn't really expand beyond spawn/cropper regions and fought for control of adjacent regions in groups of 3-4, such as 1-2 off accounts working with 2-3 deffers.

    Guys in SW were slower in developing because of the late settling or just they simmed high fields before trooping 24/7 - different strategies for each account, not worth diving into, but the gist is early on, the team was at different levels of development and at vast distances (for small map), which impacted how fast we could do ally ops. One factor was obviously the raiding. As I pointed out earlier, there were practically no bots, which meant less Natars for raiding and chiefing and, I think, the server had less players overall. We couldn't really chief into new regions for a long time while we had to wait for enemies to grow slowly. Expansion was up to your gold use and how well you managed CP, primarily. TM and KGW simply had more of such players. (Just compare the top 20 pop accounts in "Anglish" server vs COM. Heathens clearly dominated the "quality" on their server).

    I also think that the Egypt caps just made so much crop that raiding, for some, really wasn't necessary.

    As for TEAM and KGW:

    TEAM's wings acted alone most of the time, and lack of coordination among the wings cost them allies and players - a lot of defections and deletions, mostly because they saw two fronts or more for entirety of the server. Their expansion style depended on mass settling or chiefing natars over chiefing/cata'ing enemy, and they seemed to lack focus on what their long term strategy was supposed to be. In the end, they chose to prevent a KGW win than fight TM for personal or political reasons.

    KGW was aggressive and much more evenly matched with TM. They had, in my opinion, about equal number of top, aggressive players, but they lacked cohesiveness - which I suppose would happen when its a group of former enemies and all with a lack of leaders, maybe no OC for quite a time - just BGs that worked unofficially for most part. Much of their progress, like TM relied on 20-30 active, and aggressive players, but those players did a lot of work after the merger. They were taking regions almost daily, so some planning or directing was occurring but I'm not sure the trust among members was there.

    Also a lot of the regions in our way, both TM and KGW, early on, were held by fairly weak teams, or at least, didn't have enough defensive presence to block much of our armies for very long. TEAM and KGW seemed to work def just as we worked offensively, in group BGs and local hubs rather than all working together on a defense call. TEAM lost a DC and their leadership had problems with activity and, far as I know, there wasn't much of a structure for defense coordinating in KGW either. But with UT early on, and a lot of chaff in the way of SE expansion, in addition to focusing on TIW (a defense-oriented team), of course KGW would have more attack points than TM. Defensively, we probably saw 1-2 ops against us from KGW and 0 from TEAM, it was all haphazard, solo tries or localized attacks. Also TM focused on getting regions, not killing caps and hammer villages, same for KGW. As a result, hammers didnt meet many solid walls (unless you decided to send hero along) and the VP race was kept fairly close until last couple weeks. Game wasn't decided by day 100 like previous rounds. The catalyst for our win, presumably (still 25 days left or so but barring TM deletions, KGW is mathematically eliminated), was the battle over Delphi which lasted a good 2-3 weeks, and prior to Delphi, was the capitulation of TEAM from several England regions by another TM BG. Simply put, TM took enough regions fast enough, and contested long enough, to counter KGW's efforts to monopolize the 100+ vp fool regions.

    So, I guess to sum it up:

    The disparity in raiding:

    1) Less bots.

    2) Less desire to raid (Egypt caps fed a lot)

    3) Less Natars

    4) Less players

    5) More quality competition - at least to the point they could use rival's confusion or knew to cranny up.

    6) Admittedly not much raiding activity among deffers either, and off guys mostly stuck to 1-2 hammers, few had 3-4 and they were typically the ones in top 10.

    The disparity in attack/def points:

    1) More BGs, less ally ops (until late)

    2) Some teams employed settling vs chiefing/attacking runs.

    3) Less emphasis on hitting caps/hammers, more on gaining regions = meet less defense

    4) Not many significant clusters or active hubs to kill local enemy hammers

    5) Top two contenders focused away from each other until late, and TEAM ended up being the one squashed in the middle.

    6) A lot of teams had their "favorite enemy" and attacks were spread around. It wasn't a 3v1 brawl. For a while it was kind of like a Three Stooges fight.. (I'm probably showing my age here)

    Anyway, as Obi says.. its apples and oranges. Context is everything. Perhaps if Heathens had chosen to play on small map or if TM stayed at COM, things wouldn't have been so lop-sided for Heathens, and more fun for all on Anglish.

    -FW (Wordsmith)

    Thank you mist4 that was one of the most intelligent, honest posts I've read from vices so far. And restores faith that vices do have a strong presence of players like you with integrity, lets all continue to set the same tone and explore the politics of the game in such a courteous manner.

    Joker been knocking your brain around a bit - mist4 is TEN as you can see in his signature, if you bother to look up the name......