Debate: Is it morally right to seek a cure for transgenderism?

    • Debate: Is it morally right to seek a cure for transgenderism?

      There's nothing wrong with being transgender, it's a congenital issue in the brain that affects 1 in 1000 babies that gives conflicting information to the body and brain.

      Transgender people seek corrective surgery themselves.

      Would it be wrong to cure future generations?

      Mod Dark Tower wrote:

      *Sigh*, I'm such an idiot.


      The Blazin1 wrote:

      I'm not very bright.
    • Interesting question. I'm going to have to think about that.

      One thing i'd ask, if one is talking about pre-natal cures, is what do you want to try and cure?

      Do you want to prevent whatever it is that will result in the brain of the person identifying as a gender not congruent with anatomy/genotype?

      Or do you want to ensure that the fetal body develops the anatomical characteristics congruent with fetal brain development?

      Related issues:

      There appear to be several things that predispose one to be gay or lesbian, some of these involve abnormal hormonal influences on the fetus - do you think that is something that should be cured?
      And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
      - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez
    • Being gay or lesbian in itself doesn't cause health issues.

      While transgenders innately feel wrong in their body and seek corrective surgery. So I believe by making it so that their gender is the same in the womb, they'll never have those feelings.

      And I don't think it matters whether we change the body or the brain at the end of the day. Since if you tell a man of 25 that he was supposed to be a woman and vice versa, you won't receive and regret on his or her part.

      Mod Dark Tower wrote:

      *Sigh*, I'm such an idiot.


      The Blazin1 wrote:

      I'm not very bright.
    • Okay a little reminder here before this goes too far. The rules everyone from .us are used to are no longer in effect. We are all having to make some adjustments here learning the new rules.

      So far, everyone has stayed polite for which I thank you.

      So long as this stays polite, is not abusive or defamatory or using profane language, this thread can remain open for the time being. But if it even starts to go off the rails, the thread will be closed. And anyone who takes it off the rails will be dealt with appropriately.

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    • Transgenders often only realise something's "wrong" when they are capable of coherent thoughts.
      There's no way to identify it in the womb, so treating it in the womb would be forcing it upon the child to be.
      It's not like it's a defect like open back that is visible during pregnancy. So it's impossible to 'treat', as it's not evident yet.

      I have strong feeling this is somewhat related to an abortion discussion, fabricated to lure out any con-abortionist being pro-treatment for this issue.

      Mod/MH/SH (aug 2007 - feb 2010) // MH (sept 2015)
    • They've actually isolated genetic markers that account for Transgender fetuses not being able to absorb as much testosterone/estrogen as a baby with regular genetic markers.

      And "forcing it on the child" is like saying you wouldn't cure their MS when you have a prenatal vaccine because it would force it on the child.

      I'm sure if the child never has to go through feeling "wrong" in their body by being born in the "right" body, they would jump on it.

      The joy I've seen in my transgender friends but getting corrective surgery so that they can have the body they're comfortable with is immeasurable. So to never have to make them go through that to begin with is beyond even that.

      Mod Dark Tower wrote:

      *Sigh*, I'm such an idiot.


      The Blazin1 wrote:

      I'm not very bright.
    • One could say you would derive them of that joy. Making them just mundane.
      One could say you would fix their problem, even though they never realized they had a problem.

      Comparing it to MS is a bit dark though, since being transgender is not a fatal disease (it's not a disease at all).
      That would be the equivalent of trying to cure being lesbian or gay in the womb, claiming it's the same as eradicating a rogue DNA strand that results in cancerous tumors along the way.

      Apples and pears.
      Or better yet: Apples and poison.

      Mod/MH/SH (aug 2007 - feb 2010) // MH (sept 2015)
    • If I understand correctly, Sappy's argument is that

      1. It is possible to identify in utero a fetus that will develop into a transgender person
      2. Medical technology/knowledge exists to intervene in the process that causes this development
      3. The experience of being transgender - of being born in a body that does not correspond with one's sense of gender identity - is a painful one
      4. Therefore, in order to reduce pain, we should test (presumably only at the request of the person carrying the fetus) for the markers that indicate the potential for such development and intervene.

      My thoughts so far about these points:

      I don't know if we really have all the answers on why some people are trans - but I suspect the science is more complicated than we think. It usually is.

      I am still not sure what intervention would achieve - would it prevent the brain from developing in such a way that the child would be born transgender, or would it identify those who are going to be transgender in utero and alter their anatomical development? And in either case, what about mistakes made in identifying or intervening? Those would still require confirmation surgery after adolescence to fix the mistakes.

      I am not sure that pain is an inevitable consequence. I know a number of parents raising trans children - if a child's sense of gender identity is respected right from the moment the child expresses it, and is fully supported in their environment, they don't seem to be unhappy. How much of the pain is due to a sense of being in a body that doesn't correspond, and how much to either having to hide one's self, or being out and treated negatively because of it.

      Further, not all transgender people choose to change their bodies to match their sense of self. Some are quite happy expressing their identity - as long as they are accepted for who they are - in the bodies they are born with.

      Further, not all transgender people identify as male or female - some people's gender identity is non-binary, and how would we distinguish between transfolk who identify as the other binary gender and those who identify as non-binary.

      Beyond all this is the very scary spectre of eugenics and a very slippery slope which is, at one end, about treating in utero, conditions that are clearly inimical to health - MS, developmental anomalies in major organ systems, and such - and is, at the other end, about designing human beings - and eliminating certain kinds of human beings - based on social values.

      The more I think about this idea, the more convinced I am that in this case we are going too far down that slippery slope, and that instead of 'fixing' the person, we should strive to make a society where the person's experience as a trans person is not fraught with externally imposed pain, and let them decide what they want to do with their genitals.
      And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
      - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez
    • Venturing into a topic somewhat related to my dissertation (gender, masculinity, advertising).

      MS is not comparable since transgenderism isn't a disease and therefore is not something that requires a 'cure', though a diagnosis and a process of medical treatment should be available. The APA's classification under DSM-5 is 'gender dysphoria'. Therefore the notion that transgenderism can be cured at any stage, including pre-birth, is simply incorrect.

      Under the same rationale, someone could've 'cured' me of my sexuality years ago, but where would humanity be if we started going down that road? Anyone with violent tendencies? Anyone with the likelihood of binge drinking? It's unethical for the simple fact that none of us get to play God, creator-in-chief, or the maker of mankind. I've never been stronger thanks to my weaknesses, and I'll be the first to pick up a placard in opposition to transgender vaccinations.

      The main reason transgender people experience pain is because society teaches blue or pink and doesn't allow them to simply be themselves. Society, family, friends, and even advertising create and reinforce societal interjects. Remove the dangerous interjects from societies DNA and things start to look a bit clearer.

      Also, MS isn't fatal. People with MS can expect the same life expectancy as those without MS.
      "It’s only when the tide goes out that you see who was swimming naked."

      #MakeTravianGreatAgain #MTGA
    • I agree with several of the previous posters, but as a woman who has gone through three pregnancies can I put some female perspective on this;

      1. To suggest that some people are gay because of exposure to hormones in the womb may be scientifically correct, but it also suggests that the mother is able to control this. This might be identifiable with medical tests but certainly isn't something a mother experiencing a normal pregnancy would be in control of.

      2. To have the kind of intrusive tests done to determine a foetus' proclivity towards transgenderism isn't something I can imagine being offered cheaply or freely, but if that were possible, what sort of ethical dilemma are you imposing on the parents? Suppose they decided to allow their child to be whatever he/she was naturally going to be. Would society then point fingers at them for not getting their child "fixed", "cured" etc in the womb?

      3. If you can fix transgenderism, do you also fix other conditions that can be just as painful for sufferers like autism?

      I can only go on my own life experience, but having raised three beautiful children, one of whom is autistic and one of whom is gay, I wouldn't change, fix, cure, a single thing about them. I can also categorically state that I did nothing different in each pregnancy that I'm aware of, yet each child is completely individual.

      An open and liberal society accepts everyone for who they are. Our life experiences make our society rich. Taking away some of those before they have the opportunity to be experienced devalues the people who live those lives.
      Once I was Mercy and before that I was Anonymous.
      It takes a very special kind of person to lose email addresses.
      For small mercies and mHudson, be grateful.
    • Hawkery wrote:



      Also, MS isn't fatal. People with MS can expect the same life expectancy as those without MS.
      Sorry, got my MS and ALS mixed up.

      Mercedes wrote:



      2. To have the kind of intrusive tests done to determine a foetus' proclivity towards transgenderism isn't something I can imagine being offered cheaply or freely, but if that were possible, what sort of ethical dilemma are you imposing on the parents? Suppose they decided to allow their child to be whatever he/she was naturally going to be. Would society then point fingers at them for not getting their child "fixed", "cured" etc in the womb?

      3. If you can fix transgenderism, do you also fix other conditions that can be just as painful for sufferers like autism?
      2. I fear they will be just as shunned as anti-vaccers are shunned now, even though anti-vaccers are more dangerous.
      3. Why stop at autism? Why not 'fix' criminal tendencies, sociopathy, pedophilia, atheism? Make us all God fearing drones while we're at it. (sarcasm)

      Mod/MH/SH (aug 2007 - feb 2010) // MH (sept 2015)
    • I see an argument based on the pain of the experience -- I know that it was intensely painful for me to have discovered that I was not straight in this society after having already internalized a lot of this culture's disgust for anyone who isn't heteronormal. So I see why you'd want to spare someone that pain.

      But in the end, I'd say no, if I don't think gender dysphoria is a "disease," which I don't, then I don't think it should be "cured" in the womb.

      Thanks to many of you for the interesting read.
    • I was in two minds as to wether to allow this thread since it technically is against the rules

      Howhere to i decided to allow it as sometimes its healthy to allow debate of challenging topics provided they are well managed.

      That being said myself and the moderation team are closely monitoring the thread, posts that deviate from the topic or verge into extremist views may be deleted and the team oe HQ may close the thread at any time.

      My personal opinion is that transgenderism is not a disease so does not need curing.
      CM mhudson
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