The Broken Def-Point System

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    • The Broken Def-Point System

      I would like to shed some light over how the def point works and how it actually should work with reasons in this thread. Please feel free to leave suggestions/thoughts/questions here as I would like as much feedback as possible, so this reaches to the travian team, and they can go further with it. I hope i have explained it well.

      ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

      How it works :

      The def point works in a ridiculous way. The def points a person gains is according to the persons def troops crop consumption. As stated in travian FAQs, and tested out by my good friends in TM (they are the real ones who brought this up hehe, i just like to rant) on actual attacks in the current Closed Beta Server. So if a person has reinforced another player with 1k slaves and the total reinforcement in the village is 3k worth of crop consumption. The person who had sent 1k slaves will get 33% of the def points accumulated. Regardless of what kind of a hammer was sent. Regardless of what the def units are more powerful towards, infantry or cavalry. The def points given to a player simply depends on their def's crop consumption.

      How it SHOULD work:

      In my honest opinion, and many others share this opinion too, the def point system should award points according to how effective one's defense was in killing another hammer. For example if the incoming hammer is a roman one (heavy cavalry based), and the defense consists of phalanxs, spears, and prets equally (in terms of crop consumption) it is obvious that even though the consumption of all units is same since they're equal in numbers, the spearman have done the most damage to the hammer. Since they defend better against cavalry than the rest. So the teuton player who had sent the spears should gain the most points, since his defense killed the most. Yet according to travian, all players get equal amount of def points since the crop consumption was the same for all players def.

      Another example can be of slaves and prets.
      Everyone knows slaves strength lie in their numbers. Soo..... if a village has 1k slaves and 1k prets, it can be determined that those 1k slaves have a total of 5000 def strength there [ (cavdef+infadef) x number of troops] and the prets have a total of 10000 def strength (cba to do the calc of infa and cav def differently lel). From this it is clearly visible that the def supplied by the egyptian only equals to 33.33% of the total def power there, while the romans has the rest. YET both of the tribes get the equal amount of def points, due to the reason: they consume equal amounts of crop.
      (Yes i know both troops have different strength in terms of cav and infa def, but the logic is still right. The amount of def strength and damage done will vary according to what kind of a hammer it was but the Roman will still kill more since in both categories, infantry def and cavalry def, the prets exceed the slaves. And since the amount of troops is the same the romans will kill more.)

      I hope i have explained this flaw well, and that you guys can relate to the issue at hand. The def point systems seems like a joke, even though the implementation of it was an excellent thought (been years of defenders not getting credit, and gives incentive to def players to get medals too). It does seem like the travian team opted for the easiest solution to how the def point works and didnt work on how it should be in reality. I can just send a not so high amount of slaves and get the majority of the points (which will happen in the future trust me, highest def points will be going to egyptians, not cause they have the best def troop in the game, simply because they consume the most crop :| )

      Thanks to the TM team for shedding light on the def system for me :)

      - Arnav
      They see me rolling
      They hating

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Blaze: making it more clear :) ().

    • ELE wrote:

      It was not as bad without Egyptians, during a server all deference average out more or less. Now all top defenders will be Egyptians without good reason.
      Ele do you realize 1k teut scouts would also result in the same amount of def points as the 1k prets haha.
      Or 1k of cav scouts will get 66% of the def points while prets get 33%

      So i guess it was heavily flawed before too. But egyptians makes it even worse yes you are right :)
      They see me rolling
      They hating
    • Well sense I get attacked a lot and rely on defenders for the majority of my defense the old way made me look tougher. lol :)

      But for my defers I think they should get credit for what they kill not how much wheat I give em.

      By the way...... Slaves are so freaking horrible. I didnt realize it until I was devoured on beta. I had almost a thousand slaves just to detour peeps while I was sleeping. Got hit by like 180 or 190 I forget horses and a hero and he barely lost anything and the slaves got wiped out.
      Bo knows!
      Mace are like bees... a few of them are harmless but a swarm will kill you.


      Blah blah blah.... been playing sense .US started then quit that domain. Im morbid.
      I've played on all the English speaking servers many many times along with a few others I never understood a single IGM sent to me.
    • Blaze wrote:

      For example if the incoming hammer is a roman one (heavy cavalry based), and the defense consists of phalanxs, spears, and prets equally (in terms of crop consumption) it is obvious that even though the consumption of all units is same since they're equal in numbers, the spearman have done the most damage to the hammer.
      Actually it isn't so obvious.
      Take:
      - a roman hammer of "24 hours production" size = 334 :rom03: 303 :rom05: 139 :rom07: = 1660 crop consumption
      - 553 :teu02: 553 :gau01: 553 :rom02:
      you can't just sum cavdef and infadef and make conclusion. according to the battle formula defpoints are calculated in proportion to the appropriate types of the offensive units. so in this particular case the effectiveness of def units in the hummer "killing" is

      33,9% for :teu02: 31,8% for :gau01: 34,3% for :rom02:


      the calculations becomes even more complicated if take in consideration upgrade of units, ally bonus, hero bonus etc.
      meanwhile the system should be clear to user without making a great effort. nobody argues with the off-points system based on crop consumption too. so this consumption-based system is rather appropriate ( I doubt that you'll receive the same number of praets and slaves while defending from hummers, slave will be at least two times more, so their contribution in total defense will be doubled)

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Panda: missed rams ().

    • Sorry Panda, I don't understand your post. Spear kill (by far) most of the hammer in your example.

      To the topic: I think the momentary system is in place because it makes it easy for everyone to understand it. But I agree, a system in which you get the amount of defensive points that your troops actually killed would be preferably. Because it is easy to understand as well and it's fairer.

      But on the other hand, I don't think that Slaves will pose such a big problem for the system, because I can't imagine them getting mass-produced, it' far more likely that Egyptians produce Ash Warriors. So the "problem" doesn't really get any worse if we look at the bigger picture.
    • Panda wrote:

      nobody argues with the off-points system based on crop consumption too. so this consumption-based system is rather appropriate
      Off-points always belong to single player in single attack. What is there to argue?

      Def-points are distributed between several players in single attack. It is not total that is being discussed but distribution. Take extreme example? 10K phalanx defending accompanied by 10K clubs against horses. Phalanx will provide 10x more defensive power yet the gaul will get the same number of def points as the teuton.
    • Schneeente wrote:

      But on the other hand, I don't think that Slaves will pose such a big problem for the system, because I can't imagine them getting mass-produced, it' far more likely that Egyptians produce Ash Warriors. So the "problem" doesn't really get any worse if we look at the bigger picture.
      OK first of all.
      Slaves wont be mass produced? whatve you been smoking?
      In your opinion you might go for ash warden or whatever. But majority of the community sees slaves as the ideal def unit (not saying i agree with their thought) and they will be mass produced since their strength lies in numbers.

      Secondly.
      The problem isnt just with def units mate. Its with all units. So 50k clubs will get the same def points as 50k prets. Which is ridiculous. I used slaves just an example, and did not start the thread due to the addition of troops. I started it cause even now, the def point system is flawed.

      As for panda, i got no clue about half the things you said. But if you read my initial post, you will see that i have said i know cav+infa def is not how it works but i cba. And it is why i chose the calculations of slave and prets. since prets outnumber slaves in both aspects in a 1v1.
      As for the part where you said slaves will generally be more.... it makes it clear to me you didnt understand the post much, the topic at hand is different then what youre on about :P
      They see me rolling
      They hating
    • ELE wrote:

      Off-points always belong to single player in single attack. What is there to argue?
      it's about such thing as killing scouts (or natars) for easy off points

      Blaze wrote:

      As for panda, i got no clue about half the things you said.
      oh, I understood your post pretty well, as well as the fact that you have no idea how the battle system works) you gave wrong info about effectiveness of different types of def units and the following your arguments were based on this wrong info. I tried to correct it by giving real numbers.
      to compare slaves and praets in a 1v1 is totally incorrect. I could explain why, but I won't) cause you seems to be a person who doesn't admit his mistakes

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Panda ().

    • hahaha mate. Literally all have said your post does not make sense.
      I AM COMPARING SLAVES VS PRETS IN EQUAL NUMBERS BECAUSE THEIR CROP CONSUMPTION WILL BE THE SAME.
      xD
      and what wrong info did i give? please tell me?
      if spears are strongest units against cavalry (compared to spears, prets and legos), ofc they will kill the most (if kept in even numbers)
      The even numbers is the part i think you dont seem to be getting. Let me start again slowly so you might understand.
      According to travian crop consumption is what determines who gets the most points. But a roman hammer, which has heavy cavalry, will obviously be weakest against spears. And hence spears do the most damage. Yet if kept in even numbers all the units get the same number of points. which is wrong because spears kill the most, EVEN if kept in same numbers as prets and phals.

      As for you saying me not knowing how the battle system works.... (facepalm)
      Ive said twice ik thats not how it works (facepalm)

      Please read the whole post before commenting

      Panda wrote:

      to compare slaves and praets in a 1v1 is totally incorrect.
      (cwl) bro. Please read the post again. seriously. read it again and again till you understand. And please dont fill this thread with your useless arguements, until you understand what the thread is about.
      Next thing you will say is 50k clubs and 50k prets. They should get equal points and travian is right in doing so xD
      They see me rolling
      They hating
    • Blaze wrote:

      As for you saying me not knowing how the battle system works.... (facepalm)
      Ive said twice ik thats not how it works (facepalm)
      ok, so please give real numbers of effectiveness of equal amount of :gau01: :rom02: :teu02: against 24 hours non-stop production of roman hummer. but it must be real numbers and not your blah blah blah

      Blaze wrote:

      Next thing you will say is 50k clubs and 50k prets
      if you use clubs in def you are noob, sorry. I prefer to compare real def situations without discussing of "сфеерического коня в вакууме".
    • Panda wrote:

      if you use clubs in def you are noob, sorry. I prefer to compare real def situations
      I can partially understand that. But try to understand what im saying. Isnt it obvious that the 50k prets will kill more than the 50k clubs?
      It is right?
      Yet travian will give equal points in def to both players..... since both the players have troops consuming 50k. I can understand you saying its not a realistic situation, nonetheless, the system is flawed. I do not know why you keep arguing.
      But ok
      I will prove to you that it is flawed with actual numbers (tbh you asking for these is a joke to me, you do not need numbers to know spears kill majority of a roman hammer if kept in equal numbers compared with others)




      Lets start with how much a roman EC hammer will make in a days worth of production.
      Ive taken the following assumptions (mid game assumptions for a 3x):
      recruitment as 8%
      Tier 2 helmets
      Barracks, stable, workshop, and HDT as 20
      All troops level are 20 and the wall on defender is 20.

      Which gives us 1271 :rom03: 873 :rom06: and 232 :rom08:

      Now lets put them up in 7 different simulations... to prove that spears cause the most damage.

      1st simulation - Travian :: Extended Combat Simulator 2.0
      2k troops each of :rom02: :teu02: :gau01: , initial def crop consumption is 6000, total defense killed is 3072 troops. We will keep this as the base value for all simulations.

      2nd simulation - Travian :: Extended Combat Simulator 2.0
      3k troops each :gau01: :rom02: , initial def crop consumption is 6000, no spears, total defense killed is 3164 troops. From this it is already visible that 92 troops more were killed at the removal of spears. Hence proving that spears kills more compared with the rest.

      But i guess panda wont be convinced by this, due to some other bs reasoning xD so lets carry on with more simulations.

      3rd simulation - Travian :: Extended Combat Simulator 2.0
      3k troops each :teu02: , initial def crop consumption is 6000, no prets, total defense killed is 3054 troops

      4th simulation - Travian :: Extended Combat Simulator 2.0
      3k troops each :teu02: :rom02: , initial def crop consumption is 6000, no phals, total defense killed is 3004 troops

      From this it is very visible to say the least. that spears kill the most. Let me explain for you panda, im sure the others already knew this or have gotten it now. But you might need some more reasoning.
      Out of all the combinations simulation 2 had the most number of defense killed. What did it not include? Spears....
      Out of all the combinations simulation 4 had the least number of defense killed while 3rd simulation followed that, also proving that prets do more against a roman hammer if compared to phals. These both also had spears. (Like i said before, pretty sure others knew this too before hand, it is nothing new)

      Still not convinced panda?
      Only phals - Travian :: Extended Combat Simulator 2.0
      Only prets - Travian :: Extended Combat Simulator 2.0
      Only spears - Travian :: Extended Combat Simulator 2.0

      All these numbers prove that the spears do the most damage in simulation 1..... Yet since all of them have the same amount of crop consumption. They all get equal def points and HENCE the def point system is flawed.


      *mic drop


      Now please. Stop with your bs. Let others discuss. Unless you have something useful to say. Just dont.
      They see me rolling
      They hating

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Templar Knight: removed the (finger) ().