Qualification Servers

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    • Well to risk ELE's wrath I played 2 tournament servers many years ago and the staggering level of obvious cheating and corruption that I encountered that was enough to put me off ever playing one again. As I say that was many years ago so knowing Travian as a company........nothing will have changed.
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    • ELE wrote:


      Armour wrote:

      MHs can certainly be included in the no one lol. I was more just mocking that TG writes out such explicit rules and then never enforces them.
      That is not true. Rule 1.1. is heavily enforced on large com servers and on tournament servers which leads to a lot of frustration as it creates a lot undoubtedly (in my mind) false positives and even more unclear cases. The rule is not defined and in general (again, in my mind) by definition contradicts the idea of team play, there is no such thing as "own account benefit" in team game. Don't get me wrong - the rule does more good than bad, i.e. illegal accounts are being removed from the game under this rule, mainly multi accounts that are being run carefully enough to hide other evidences, and for this reason a vague rule is reasonable but at the same time extensive training and accountability of MHs is required. Here comes an example

      APenguinOverlord wrote:

      Imagine 50k druid tech accounts.
      May I ask you for a definition of tech account? I would guess you mean an account that does not play for it's own benefit. 50K druids is not huge number but for sure enough to believe an account played it's own game.


      The response I usually get to this rule from small domain players is, "well duh." The one I get from international players is, "It's not well defined!" Or, "lol, so what I can't send defense?"

      There is a rather clear element of reciprocity to be had. An account that lets you raid it all round, is not in alliance tag, and will be laid down as a pawn at moments notice gets no benefit from the other account. They expect no gain from that other account.

      On the other hand, a legit player pushing a hammer or supplying def will be defended and is important. The two are both treated well. Of course, this is nearly impossible to distinguish from the MH level, which is why so many people do it and get away with it. I understand that it's a very hard rule to enforce.

      On large server, no one who does this can be stopped. Even catching multis is technologically impossible if done right. On small servers, these players usually don't get banned, but will be ostracized; which on a domain where everyone knows everyone is a career-ender.

      As for your other post, this is why smaller domains lump com and tournament players together. There is no community moderation via reputation. If you have a falling out with a group of 300 people, no one else will have heard about it outside that group because there are too many people to care. On a small domain, you're just done.

      And to continue your statement of "No backstabbing," I know one us team who was continuously backstabbed by confeds and then spent the rest of the server kicking out spies, who ended up being about 1/8 of their alliance. That's just not fun to players on small domains, where reputation and fun is what we're after, not points and wins (which can be it's own fun).

      Nothing personal, of course. If you enjoy the big domains, you do you. It's a completely different game that I don't mind the existence of. It pays for our servers :D As I said before, small domain players love small domains and big domain players love big domains.

      Sorry for the long post; I'm quite sleep deprived but put way too much effort into this to delete it :D I've pulled this way off topic so I'll stop now haha
    • Armour wrote:

      wishmaster3 wrote:

      (those private farms, while technically not against the rules if they have an actual person playing... Are still lame as f.).
      Does no one read the rules?
      § 1. Account
      • § 1.1 Each player may only own and play one account per game world. An account must always be played for its own benefit. Accounts that exist solely for the benefit of other accounts may be permanently banned.

      I'm perfectly aware of those rules, and got obvious multi-accounts (ofc run with proxy) banned by it, on .com. But the enforcement will vary from MH to MH - and we also had a large discussion about it on the .com forum, where it was stated by a CM that you can let others farm you, without it breaking the rule.

      Personally, I think it should be fairly simple with these private farms -> if the amount stolen exceeds pushing protection limits (which includes raiding teammates), it's just a way of circumventing automatically enforced game rules = ban. But would be hard to enforce.

      That's my opinion though. As ELE said, it's a teamgame - if you want to help your team by letting them raid you, isn't that fair, and shouldn't you be allowed to play that way? I disagree with her, but it's a legitimate opinion.

      The rule in itself is incredibly ambigious - because you can't really call it beneficial to the account to send res pushes for people using trainers/rebuilding caps in your team, or helping others keep their hammers fed while marching or if they got hit - but I think we've all done that. Which is why I "pair" it with the automatically enforced game rules.

      Anyway, ELE and the others who went to Munich have reported that TG is infact aware of these issues, but aren't sure how to best make the rules less ambigious, or how to counter private farms in other ways - but they're working on it.


      Anyway, as Mercedes stated, this is off-topic for this thread, so maybe we should move the discussion elsewhere if you want to talk about it further



      Edit:

      Armour wrote:

      As for your other post, this is why smaller domains lump com and tournament players together. There is no community moderation via reputation. If you have a falling out with a group of 300 people, no one else will have heard about it outside that group because there are too many people to care. On a small domain, you're just done.
      No teams have 300 players these days. And word travels fast anyway - .com might be bigger, but majority of leaders (and to some degree players) know each other anyway. Even when servers were larger than they are now (3-4 years ago), the cheaters were well-known by the pre-formed teams (veteran players). Sadly some people do look away from the cheating and accept the players anyway... But I think the same would be the case for some teams on smaller domains too - probably some players on US and UK too, if they were under pressure and got a large benefit from the cheating account.

      From what I've heard, private farms/garage accounts were actually super common on some local domains (guess not UK and US) for a very long time, while on .com it has not really been a thing on normal servers, except for a few well-known multi-accounters, until recently.

      While some .com teams and players would rather ignore the cheating, plenty of people despise it too. From all ally chats I've been in, by far the majority of the people there don't like cheating or private farms or w/e.



      Armour wrote:

      The one I get from international players is, "It's not well defined!" Or, "lol, so what I can't send defense?"
      Actually, what I get (and I probably know more international players than you :p ) is - "lol private farms are lame, ofc it shouldn't be allowed".



      Armour wrote:

      There is a rather clear element of reciprocity to be had. An account that lets you raid it all round, is not in alliance tag, and will be laid down as a pawn at moments notice gets no benefit from the other account. They expect no gain from that other account.

      On the other hand, a legit player pushing a hammer or supplying def will be defended and is important. The two are both treated well. Of course, this is nearly impossible to distinguish from the MH level, which is why so many people do it and get away with it. I understand that it's a very hard rule to enforce.
      On the contrary, why wouldn't the private farm be defended? It's gonna be defended against others trying to raid it obviously... But if enemies launch catas on it, it's probably gonna be defended too. No reason to not wall an enemy hammer, and no reason to lose w/e fields are on the account (let's say it has level 14 cap fields... If those go, res from the account will be much less).

      Just playing the devil's advocate here ;) as said, in essence I agree with you, but this is just another argument as to why rule 1.1 should be seen in relation to the automatically enforced game rules in my opinion.


      (sorry for the continious edits and quoting. If you would like to discuss it further, let's start another topic, as said.)


      Animis opibusque parati

      com8 (F&S beta) and now back to retirement...

      The post was edited 4 times, last by wishmaster3 ().

    • chainsawdaz wrote:

      After a long read 8) This thread for sure has put me off ever playing a Travian tournament 8o not enough chill, too much stress lol
      I'm the same haha. If ELE was trying to defend the tourny then she has done a horrible horrible job of it. Basically confirmed why it gets very little attention from the UK players.
    • in what i've read, she basically is saying to uk community to get of their high horse and see that there's proportionally as much cheating on uk as it is on tourney and .com which most of the uk communitiy are putting in the same bag. Difference is only in the number of accounts playing servers. Of course there will be more cheating and bending rules on .com and tourney, but thats just due to the larger base of players playing. I dont know, maybe thats just me saying it actually :thumbup:
    • MarkokraM wrote:

      in what i've read, she basically is saying to uk community to get of their high horse and see that there's proportionally as much cheating on uk as it is on tourney and .com which most of the uk communitiy are putting in the same bag. Difference is only in the number of accounts playing servers. Of course there will be more cheating and bending rules on .com and tourney, but thats just due to the larger base of players playing. I dont know, maybe thats just me saying it actually :thumbup:
      and we, as the people who have actually been playing the UK domain for the last 11 years, are saying that this is completely wrong. As i said in a previous post, we had a CM who ran a very tight ship. I played more than my share of com servers over the years too and there is simply no comparison between the two regarding how the rules were applied.

      ELE seems to have taken a real dislike to the UK community.
    • Actually, I think it’s just me she doesn’t like.

      I see very little evidence of cheating on UK servers and when it does happen it’s usually from players who have come from other domains. Last big cheat I saw was silver botting and had come from com. As soon as everyone on the server new who was behind it (which was within days, it was really obvious who it was) The account was ostracised by other players even though the MH couldn’t get the evidence to prove who it was. Eventually, the account was caught on another technicality of password sharing and deleted.

      I don’t think anyone is stupid enough to suggest that thee is no cheating here, but as @Armour correctly stated, in the smaller domains players tend to self police more.

      Stand out Award 2017 UK
    • Don't know why you guys feel the need to deliberately misinterpret what ELE said. It honestly seems like a deeply-imbedded loathing towards anyone not already a part of the small UK puddle. Kinda strange to have that mentality when servers are small enough as is.

      Anyway, regardless of that: all she asked was for ordinary .com servers and players to not be bunched in with the tournament crowd - it's two entirely separate things. The only thing she said about UK, was that it was delusional to liken ordinary .com with tourney.


      NE Fan_UK wrote:

      and we, as the people who have actually been playing the UK domain for the last 11 years, are saying that this is completely wrong.
      Again, she didn't say anything about cheating levels on UK. Yet everyone on the UK domain are quick to say that everyone on .com cheats and multies... I've been playing on .com for 13 years, and guess what, it's just not true.

      I, not ELE, did say something about cheating on UK - I said that there are probably some players who would turn a blind eye, if the gains they had from someone cheating were large enough - I think that is the case on all domains... But I didn't say anything about the level of cheating on UK or if it was proportional to somewhere else.

      Proportionally, cheating/techs/multies and what not are far far less accepted on ordinary .com servers than tourney... And I guess proportionally, it might be a bit less on UK than ordinary .com - though I'm sure not as much as you guys always make it out to be.



      Mercedes wrote:

      Last big cheat I saw was silver botting and had come from com. As soon as everyone on the server new who was behind it (which was within days, it was really obvious who it was) The account was ostracised by other players even though the MH couldn’t get the evidence to prove who it was. Eventually, the account was caught on another technicality of password sharing and deleted.
      Well that's interesting. From what I know/see, the ones running the silver/res selling bots on .com never actively play anymore (I've seen some playing years ago, and there was of course a huge outcry against them - but sadly they had brought their own 20-30 players (+multies), so they couldn't be completely ostracised). I think they're just getting what profits they can. Maybe the UK as a "market" is so small (because there's a much smaller playerbase) that it's not really interesting to run bots here just for the money?

      Anyway, many players on .com will actively look for the bots and report them to the MH to get them banned (even though it should be the MHs job to actively look for these bots, rather than relying on players reporting them, but that's another issue)... Even though new ones will pop up.


      Animis opibusque parati

      com8 (F&S beta) and now back to retirement...
    • wishmaster3 wrote:

      Mercedes wrote:

      Last big cheat I saw was silver botting and had come from com. As soon as everyone on the server new who was behind it (which was within days, it was really obvious who it was) The account was ostracised by other players even though the MH couldn’t get the evidence to prove who it was. Eventually, the account was caught on another technicality of password sharing and deleted.
      Well that's interesting. From what I know/see, the ones running the silver/res selling bots on .com never actively play anymore (I've seen some playing years ago, and there was of course a huge outcry against them - but sadly they had brought their own 20-30 players (+multies), so they couldn't be completely ostracised). I think they're just getting what profits they can. Maybe the UK as a "market" is so small (because there's a much smaller playerbase) that it's not really interesting to run bots here just for the money?
      Anyway, many players on .com will actively look for the bots and report them to the MH to get them banned (even though it should be the MHs job to actively look for these bots, rather than relying on players reporting them, but that's another issue)... Even though new ones will pop up.

      This was the UK6 server prior to the one in endgame now so it was well over a year ago. He stopped playing halfway through the server and has never been seen since. I can't work out how it would generate money. The impression I got was that it was to flood the auctions with hero items, particularly cages. That account had some spectacular zoos! I tried communicating with him by IGM early on and he was full of the alliance that he used to run on Com. He could have been lying, but he was very specific with names though I wouldn't be able to remember them now.

      Stand out Award 2017 UK
    • wishmaster3 wrote:

      Again, she didn't say anything about cheating levels on UK. Yet everyone on the UK domain are quick to say that everyone on .com cheats and multies... I've been playing on .com for 13 years, and guess what, it's just not true.
      No one has said that everyone on .com cheats and multi's. You simply made that up to fit your agenda. That's disappointing.

      What we have said throughout this thread is that cheating is far more widespread on .com servers. I've played both and i'm speaking from experience here. The UK domain has simply never had the culture of cheating that the .com domain has. And the reason for that is that the rules are far more rigorously enforced here.
    • I guess the reason is UK is UK, and Com is mixture of people from all domains. In some moderation isn't that good, so when they go international they do the same thing there.

      Being the more popular server does attract more of such behavior, simple logic...
      Many people do many things for internet fame. :)


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    • NE Fan_UK wrote:

      wishmaster3 wrote:

      Again, she didn't say anything about cheating levels on UK. Yet everyone on the UK domain are quick to say that everyone on .com cheats and multies... I've been playing on .com for 13 years, and guess what, it's just not true.
      No one has said that everyone on .com cheats and multi's. You simply made that up to fit your agenda. That's disappointing.
      What we have said throughout this thread is that cheating is far more widespread on .com servers. I've played both and i'm speaking from experience here. The UK domain has simply never had the culture of cheating that the .com domain has. And the reason for that is that the rules are far more rigorously enforced here.
      Mercedes made a thread about tournament, yet made this statement:

      Mercedes wrote:

      whenever anyone talks about going to play Com there are shudders. Bots, cheats, multis, tech accounts, 53 duals to one account, mega metas and different codes of play to what we are used to here.

      Nobody from UK talks much about the Tournament. So what is it? How do you play it? How do you know what domain to play?
      And that's what ELE reacted to. Maybe Mercedes did mean tournament, and not com... But ELE was simply saying those two shouldn't be confused... Don't know why that has to be made out as ELE hating the UK community (nor Mercedes...)



      Mercedes wrote:

      I can't work out how it would generate money. The impression I got was that it was to flood the auctions with hero items, particularly cages. That account had some spectacular zoos! I tried communicating with him by IGM early on and he was full of the alliance that he used to run on Com. He could have been lying, but he was very specific with names though I wouldn't be able to remember them now.
      Res, silver and even defense is sold for money on external sites.

      That guy doesn't sound like someone running the usual silver bots... If his only goal was to get more cages for himself LOL. Too bad you can't remember the name. Was he Iranian by chance? Some of the most notorious multi-accounters are Iranian (no offense to Iranians in general...)

      Anyway, as I said, they can still gather some friends that will put up with their antics... And sadly attract maybe more gullible newer players too :/ But majority of well-established .com teams despise these people and shun them.


      Animis opibusque parati

      com8 (F&S beta) and now back to retirement...

      The post was edited 1 time, last by wishmaster3 ().

    • I don't know why you bother Wish. I feel like the UK community always looks at the larger domains with some condescension and what seems to be a permanent chip on their shoulder:

      UK don't get selected to hold qualifier - Reasoning: " They must hate us!"
      Dare to defend obviously biased claims - Reasoning: "They must hate us/me!"

      I mean, c'mon, where in the world does this attitude come from?
      ..And that is the Final Word.

    • MadZ wrote:

      If ELE was trying to defend the tourny then she has done a horrible horrible job of it. Basically confirmed why it gets very little attention from the UK players.
      Probably. I would declare it win-win though, given that none of tournament players bothered to show up with inspirational speech. Everybody happy. :thumbsup:

      MarkokraM wrote:

      she basically is saying to uk community to get of their high horse and see that there's proportionally as much cheating on uk as it is on tourney and .com which most of the uk communitiy are putting in the same bag. Difference is only in the number of accounts playing servers. Of course there will be more cheating and bending rules on .com and tourney, but thats just due to the larger base of players playing. I dont know, maybe thats just me saying it actually
      Not exactly. I prefer ponies, that's correct, but I have not made comparison between UK and Com domains, not on cheating topic, not on any other topics. I don't think cheating is what defines Tournament, that's all. There are many more colors for tournament servers, often not desirable for people who prefer casual slow servers either, but generally good, imho.

      NE Fan_UK wrote:

      ELE seems to have taken a real dislike to the UK community.
      That you simply made up to fit your agenda.

      Mercedes wrote:

      Actually, I think it’s just me she doesn’t like.
      I have hard time ignoring statements that insult me and people around me and you happen to make them. Nothing personal at all.

      NE Fan_UK wrote:

      No one has said that everyone on .com cheats and multi's.
      You simply said and keep saying that com domain embraces rules breaking at the same level as tournament, this is opening statement of this topic and you keep stating it again and again. Somehow the argument that the level of cheating on com domain is higher than on uk domain (which I rather agree with even though I have never played a uk server) is enough for you to make such conclusion. Do I really need to go into logic 101 here?

      NE Fan_UK wrote:

      You simply made that up to fit your agenda.
      What agenda?

      NE Fan_UK wrote:

      What we have said throughout this thread is that cheating is far more widespread on .com servers. I've played both and i'm speaking from experience here. The UK domain has simply never had the culture of cheating that the .com domain has. And the reason for that is that the rules are far more rigorously enforced here.
      So you forced me to compare finally. UK domain and most of other local domains is casual play area. More populated domains, com being one of them, tend to be more competitive and you have to put in more effort, time, money to be on the same level if you are lucky to land on such server but competition will still be below tournament level. The tournament is always competitive, don't need luck to find a challenge there. As result you simply don't need to bend or break rules on casual server, no reason for that. You still can play at high level on com servers without breaking rules, time, effort and money will get you there. On tournament it becomes brutal and you simply can't afford to play without rules bending if you want your team to win, constant bending will obviously end up with a break at some point and more and more later. I don't know how good rules enforcement is on UK (for example) domain, to compare it has to be tested in the same environment. Hunting on last tournament was brutal, whole alliances were deleted. Yet, somehow people keep saying that tournament MH crew is corrupt and local domains MHs are doing much better job, logic 101 does not work for me once again.
    • ELE wrote:

      Not exactly. I prefer ponies, that's correct, but I have not made comparison between UK and Com domains, not on cheating topic, not on any other topics. I don't think cheating is what defines Tournament, that's all. There are many more colors for tournament servers, often not desirable for people who prefer casual slow servers either, but generally good, imho.
      fair enough, but, i did say at the end that that's me saying :) i just didn't want to interrupt discussion without any connection to it :D
    • 1. @ELE Stop taking things so personally. My question here was to UK players about their experience of Tournament and Com and if it married up with the general gossip flying around. Nobody said all com players or all Tournament players are cheats, just that it's the perception of the experiences players here pass around. You have had an opportunity to defend that and it has been listened to. I wanted to have a comparison of our tight knit community and domain here and the much bigger Tournament and the responses have been very informative.

      2. Cheating is endemic on Tournament servers. That isn't in dispute and was even brought up by you and your group in the workshops you had in Munich.
      LoT18_Tournament-and-Onboarding-Workshop-Notes.pdf
      Whilst I can understand the idea that extreme competition is going to encourage it, it is up to TG to enforce rules properly if they want an clean game. If it is just about the money, then Tournament is a winning formula as it must generate a lot more income than local domains do. However, they also need to consider that they have lost, what, 80% of their player base over the last few years. If they are only now beginning to properly look at why then it doesn't hold out much hope. They need a quick turnaround but still seem to work at a snail's pace.

      3. Nobody in this thread has ever suggested that it is the fault of corrupt MHs. Whilst there have undoubtably been corrupt MHs in the past and possibly still are in some domains, the MHs on UK and US here and now are held in the utmost regard. That is entirely down to the integrity of the CRS and the MHs that we are very lucky to have. That hasn't always been the case in the UK. I'm sure there are others apart from myself who remember Brettando! We know the MHs are volunteers (those people who give up their free time to support the game and are treated like disposable cattle for the main part) and we completely respect the time they give. What we don't agree with is the lack of training they have and the lack of consistency across domains - again, something you and your group fed back to HQ in your all expenses paid (from our gold) jolly.

      To get a discussion going, sometimes you have to start with a controversial statement. In my opinion, this has been a good and informative discussion and mirrors a lot of the points about Tournament that the player representatives took to Munich. It is to be hoped that TG are listening to them.

      Stand out Award 2017 UK