Biggest problem with the new tribes - moral dilemma

    • @Ameno

      -more power to multihunters: if they caught you, they MUST ban you and not decrease your % damange like ALWAYS do nowadays. I hear, I know, I see thousand of player that get banned and than send a message to Mh and they say to him something like "it's not my fault, I haven't start the bot, my dual...my dog" and with that patetic excuse (or something like that), Mh give only 5% / 10% of pop structure reduce because in my opinion they are not fully supported by TG.
      With the rule 1.1, anyone with a little bit of knowledge and experience on this game can detect who is a multi and who is not like controlling the ip logging (if he log most like in proxy or normal ip), check if he is constantly under raid by the same players and even if he had defence troop he do not defend himself, if he give away his villages to the same player and stuff like that.
      A serious Mh can check all this things and make an own idea if an account play only for his benefit or for others benefit and that means that rule 1.1 (not pandora one's), in my opinion, is it good enough to detect who is multi and who not. Then, if they think one account is a multi, they must have the power to ban it without changing idea and get brain washed by the users who will definetly cry a lot with the Multihunter and he will say a lot of poo just to get away "easy".

      -better punishment: if you turn on a bot today and you get banned, i think you will get only 33% damage of pop/structure in the better cases because like i said before, if you speak with Mh after a ban you can decrease your % of damage if you know what to say to convince him.
      In the past, if you get banned because you used a bot, they gave to you like 50% damage of pop/structure and they delete all your troops. Today, the punishments for those who not follow the rules are ridicolous cause if you cheat and you get banned, you will have more advantages then anyone who don't cheat because the punishment is not enough "stronger" to incorauge a fair game.
      So, after TG gave more freedom and power to Mh to ban without any chance to the user to convince theme that they didn't cheat, you have to improve the punishment to discourage any tipe of cheating. Today, before turn on a bot, people think "I will have more advantages if I raid with it even if they ban me". With better punishment like were in the past, they will think "If I turn on the bot i will screw up all of my work and all the money that I put in this game. Better if I play following the rules."

      Posibly solution: for who get caught using bot -> delete of all troops and +50% damage of the pop/structure ecc.
      .for who get caught with multiaccounts-> delete of all multiaccounts, delete of all troops +50% damange of the pop/structure ecc.

      This are my ideas for the war against cheaters. They are not perfect because the Multihunters have to be very careful to analyze each case and not ban innocent people. But they are humans and human can mistake. However, i think this approach is a good one even if a small % of users will be banned wrongly. To reduce that % of mistakes that Mh can do, you have to prepare theme and not pick everyone who ask for be a Multihunter.

      If TG is not interested to war against cheaters (and in my opinion is not cause cheaters bring more money in TG pockets*), you could do something for who play honest and don't cheat making 2 international servers (one 1x and other one 3x) where proxy is illegal or with limited logs. If multiaccount exist is in large part because of proxy so those servers can be nice servers for players that want to play a fair equal game. The cheaters can play the others servers.

      *i say that cheaters bring money to TG pockets because I know people who fully gold multiaccounts just to pump up the main one so multi in the servers = more money for TG.
      List of Dislike:
      alessandra
      Mazza Pazza

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Yowie: Removed swear ().

    • I have the strong feeling discussion is being dragged away from what it had initially been about.
      I did not see any official of TG say they would stop banning/punishing botters or multi-accounters. Quite the contrary.
      All they are saying is that for _PtP servers_ (not TL or any other) friendly chiefing of _another player_ is considered strategy, not cheating.


      "Between impulse and action there is a realm of good taste begging for your acquaintance."
      (the doctor, voy4/25)
    • Mr. Seven wrote:

      @Ameno

      -more power to multihunters: if they caught you, they MUST ban you and not decrease your % damange like ALWAYS do nowadays. I hear, I know, I see thousand of player that get banned and than send a message to Mh and they say to him something like "it's not my fault, I haven't start the bot, my dual...my dog" and with that patetic excuse (or something like that), Mh give only 5% / 10% of pop structure reduce because in my opinion they are not fully supported by TG.
      With the rule 1.1, anyone with a little bit of knowledge and experience on this game can detect who is a multi and who is not like controlling the ip logging (if he log most like in proxy or normal ip), check if he is constantly under raid by the same players and even if he had defence troop he do not defend himself, if he give away his villages to the same player and stuff like that.
      A serious Mh can check all this things and make an own idea if an account play only for his benefit or for others benefit and that means that rule 1.1 (not pandora one's), in my opinion, is it good enough to detect who is multi and who not. Then, if they think one account is a multi, they must have the power to ban it without changing idea and get brain washed by the users who will definetly cry a lot with the Multihunter and he will say a lot of bullshit just to get away "easy".

      -better punishment: if you turn on a bot today and you get banned, i think you will get only 33% damage of pop/structure in the better cases because like i said before, if you speak with Mh after a ban you can decrease your % of damage if you know what to say to convince him.
      In the past, if you get banned because you used a bot, they gave to you like 50% damage of pop/structure and they delete all your troops. Today, the punishments for those who not follow the rules are ridicolous cause if you cheat and you get banned, you will have more advantages then anyone who don't cheat because the punishment is not enough "stronger" to incorauge a fair game.
      So, after TG gave more freedom and power to Mh to ban without any chance to the user to convince theme that they didn't cheat, you have to improve the punishment to discourage any tipe of cheating. Today, before turn on a bot, people think "I will have more advantages if I raid with it even if they ban me". With better punishment like were in the past, they will think "If I turn on the bot i will screw up all of my work and all the money that I put in this game. Better if I play following the rules."

      Posibly solution: for who get caught using bot -> delete of all troops and +50% damage of the pop/structure ecc.
      .for who get caught with multiaccounts-> delete of all multiaccounts, delete of all troops +50% damange of the pop/structure ecc.

      This are my ideas for the war against cheaters. They are not perfect because the Multihunters have to be very careful to analyze each case and not ban innocent people. But they are humans and human can mistake. However, i think this approach is a good one even if a small % of users will be banned wrongly. To reduce that % of mistakes that Mh can do, you have to prepare theme and not pick everyone who ask for be a Multihunter.

      If TG is not interested to war against cheaters (and in my opinion is not cause cheaters bring more money in TG pockets*), you could do something for who play honest and don't cheat making 2 international servers (one 1x and other one 3x) where proxy is illegal or with limited logs. If multiaccount exist is in large part because of proxy so those servers can be nice servers for players that want to play a fair equal game. The cheaters can play the others servers.

      *i say that cheaters bring money to TG pockets because I know people who fully gold multiaccounts just to pump up the main one so multi in the servers = more money for TG.
      Excellent summary of what we asked in the italian thread, but our Admin has closed the thread and no one has never answered.
      ........................... ...............................
    • Okay m too tired even to read any of this now . This has gone so off topic (Cwl)

      +1 on schmitz post.


      Mr. Seven wrote:

      I hear, I know, I see thousand of player that get banned and than send a message to Mh
      With all due respect oh all knowing one, which servers are these. The ones i play barely have a 1000 player together.
      A-nub-is me , I am a noob.

      ELE wrote:

      I actually agree with @A-nub-is

      The post was edited 1 time, last by A-nub-is ().

    • Wolkenengel wrote:

      But you do realize the whole world doesn't browse the Italian forum, nor understand your language, right?

      Maybe share some ideas and whatnot from .it forum, but in English?
      Like him, others asked to do a recap about what we discuss on IT forum, including Ameno that asked feedback about that 1.1 changing.
      So, if you don't want to read it (i tell this to the users up here), log out the forum and have a nice day!
      List of Dislike:
      alessandra
      Mazza Pazza

    • When people talking about "justice" and "equality" trying to strenghthen this concepts, and read comments like "i'm tired", "you're boring", "we are not interested"....well you understand where the game is coming...these are quality that should be preserved!!! as in life even in a game!!

      As mention before, in forum today, also write cheaters...and they, obviously, don't want a really solution.
      ........................... ...............................
    • New

      Schneeente wrote:

      I know how to shut up all those self righteous people here who think they know it all:

      Look on which server Fonzy87 is playing.

      Either register 10 accounts per hand on my own or have 9 friends register different accounts, doesn't matter.

      Develop the accounts a bit.

      Send all res of those accounts to Fonzy87.

      Report his #1 population account to the mh.

      Let justice run its course.

      See him crying in the forum how unfair / incompetent MHs are



      => Right now that behavior only gets the 10 accounts banished that I / my friends created.
      In your world it is soooo obvious who is behind those accounts (they obviously benefit #1 pop player, so he is behind them, obviously! so easy!) and your proposed rule-change now leads to the #1 pop guy gets banned.




      senapsgas wrote:

      If they pay me i'll come up with a waterproof concept, untill then that is not my job. :)
      all hat and no cattle


      you really have to be a mediocre player if you need these strategies to deal with someone. I'm not surprised that travian is slowly rotting if it leaves the unhealthy ideas of players of your skill affect regulation.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Eustachio ().

    • New

      Schneeente wrote:

      Wall of nonesense

      senapsgas wrote:

      If they pay me i'll come up with a waterproof concept, untill then that is not my job. :)
      all hat and no cattle
      Its not my job, i pay for this game and I expect that they also use some of that money on developers, if they want me to come up with a waterproof system för them then they have to pay me for it.

      Simple as that, or do you got to McDonalds and make your own food aswell?
      cash me ousside, how bout dat?
    • New

      Eustachio wrote:

      you really have to be a mediocre player if you need these strategies to deal with someone. I'm not surprised that travian is slowly rotting if it leaves the unhealthy ideas of players of your skill affect regulation.
      you really miss the point, mate. How do you come to the idea, _he_ needs such strategies?
      All he says is players _could_ use them and therefore they coud manipulate bans if they were used as you suggested. And that this option speaks against your idea.
      You guys make one core mistake in this debate: You assume everyone who thinks TGs change of the rules for PtP is the right thing to do in the current situation only says so because they want their actual cheating justified.
      This is not the case.


      "Between impulse and action there is a realm of good taste begging for your acquaintance."
      (the doctor, voy4/25)
    • New

      Schmitz' Katze wrote:

      Eustachio wrote:

      you really have to be a mediocre player if you need these strategies to deal with someone. I'm not surprised that travian is slowly rotting if it leaves the unhealthy ideas of players of your skill affect regulation.
      you really miss the point, mate. How do you come to the idea, _he_ needs such strategies?All he says is players _could_ use them and therefore they coud manipulate bans if they were used as you suggested. And that this option speaks against your idea.
      You guys make one core mistake in this debate: You assume everyone who thinks TGs change of the rules for PtP is the right thing to do in the current situation only says so because they want their actual cheating justified.
      This is not the case.
      Yeah, lets drop all bans and drop rules, there is no way we could risk have accounts wrongfully banned cause its also crucial for the whole alliance to have one account wrongfully banned.
      Finals: the nerone - Infiniti| Inno Di Mameli - SPQR WW HOLDER FINALS 2017/2018
      FRX : Rockerduck

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Templar Knight: removed insult/no warning ().

    • New

      Schmitz' Katze wrote:

      Eustachio wrote:

      you really have to be a mediocre player if you need these strategies to deal with someone. I'm not surprised that travian is slowly rotting if it leaves the unhealthy ideas of players of your skill affect regulation.
      you really miss the point, mate. How do you come to the idea, _he_ needs such strategies?All he says is players _could_ use them and therefore they coud manipulate bans if they were used as you suggested. And that this option speaks against your idea.
      You guys make one core mistake in this debate: You assume everyone who thinks TGs change of the rules for PtP is the right thing to do in the current situation only says so because they want their actual cheating justified.
      This is not the case.
      You really miss my point. Letting the cheaters do what they want in a legal way will just kill what remains of this game. And the biggest part is already gone.
      How can u say 100% this guy isn't a cheater who is happy to chief his "friends" village without the risk of ban? I can say u assume they aren't cheaters without a proof.
      It's the same % to be right i have to say they are cheaters. Now to be competitive u HAVE TO use this silly friendly chiefing startegy, which makes it necessary to start with "friends". That will lead to a lot of "friends" that with a magic trick will let u conquer their villages. How much skill does that requires? I'd say 0.
      It will only be a game about who has the most "friends" to conquer.
      There are surely better way of trying to solve this problem. This will only make happy the players who can't build account on their own cause they are not so skilled use multiple friends to bridge the difference betwen their skills compared to better players. Even if they don't use a real multi( but an account existing only do help another one should be called multi) the game will be ruined by that.
    • New

      I think those suggestions are ... actually the wrong way.

      If a MH is dedicated he can already ban you if he thinks that you are cheating and he can effectively kill your account. We don't need changes in that regard or rather even if you make changes that will not have any effect.

      Because the underlying problem is that the MHs are neither trained enough nor are there enough MHs around to ensure a fair game. Let's face it, at the moment the MHs do a pretty poor job, there are known alliances who even BRAG with their multis and bots and dozens players are known within the "player-base" to always use bots - they still start servers and get away with it.

      No wonder if you have 1 MH for 1 Server. And maybe the same MH is hunting on another server as well. And most of their time is spent answering tickets anyway.. not spent hunting.

      I think if TG offers money to MHs they'd get far more applications so that they 1.) can choose between far more people who are a better fit for the job and 2.) the MHs would take their job more seriously and 3.) if we have twice or trice the amount of MHs per server they can actually start doing their job and HUNT for cheaters instead of just answering tickets on x servers.


      But all that is offtopic.



      Concerning the actual rule-change I have not read a single better solution how to deal with the situation:
      How can Travian ensure that we, as a rule-abiding-alliance, are not heavily at a disadvantage in the next ptp we play?
      Because if we go to Epidaurum and then our enemies go there and do the hun/egyptian-"trick" (even if they only have 2 accounts who do that) they have such an insane advantage ... that we shouldn't be able to ever defeat them if they are not completely inept.
      I think allowing friendly chiefing is not optimal but the best decision possible under the circumstances.





      And regarding that annoying "Everything was better in the old days"-guy: When I started playing Travian friendly chiefing was strictly forbidden. They changed that 2-3 years later with the explanation "well, they are doing it anyway and we cannot stop it, so we allow it but from now on whenever you chief a smaller player that village gets a ~10% reduction".
      And then.. some years later they invented the 1.1 rule because people abused the newly gained freedom..
      So there always was a progression, TG always reacted to the situation and circumstances. As they did now. Allowing friendly chiefing again certainly is not the end of TG. On the contrary: Prohibiting it and then not being able to ban the players who do it regardless would do far worse damage because all the honest players feel puked. And rightfully so. And as we already established: You cannot ever prove intend.
      Judges do it, but they have infinite more information than a MH and they ... well ... don't work for a company nor do they work for free. MHs are just not prepared/equipped to prove that someone settled there on purpose and got chiefed on purpose.
      If he could invite witnesses, could make them speak the truth under oath and then discovers that those 2 players knew each other from previous servers... okay, then that would be enough to ban them beyond reasonable doubt but as long as the MH can only see the sparse IG information ... I don't see how he can do what you expect him to do.
    • New

      Fonzy87 wrote:

      For ELE it's right play servers like these...where 2/3 of accounts are multiaccounts.
      For she is better to leave 98% of thieves in the city (cheaters in the servers), compared to having 1-2 honest thieves in jail.

      Fortunately, her opinion is only valid in a game if it's in the real we would have a big problem hahahahhaa
      ELE likes to play by rules, preferably well defined. "Playing for account benefit" as a rule does not make any sense for me in team game. Accounts I am on don't play for account benefit and this is the feature of my game style I am proud of. Of course we try to make our account better and have decent success, but when there is a conflict between the account benefit and the alliance benefit, the alliance goes first. We gave away numerous villages to teammates, we settled numerous villages in remote regions, we cataed our own fully developed villages because the alliance needed our CP somewhere else, we send all our defense, which, mind you, often can stop a couple of decent hammers, to teammates, we pushed teammates with all our merchants etc. None of this was for the account benefit, but this is how we play and how we want our teammates to play. And I don't want to think how MH will see my actions, if it will trigger any investigation, what are my chances to get banned for my neglect of the account benefit.

      Am I happy that there is nothing to stop disposable accounts now? NO. But what is currently in place does not stop them either and it never will because there is no way to distinguish, without reasonable doubts, team play from cheating. I would rather allow people use the same tactics. Your statements about weak players made me giggle. We have been accused (not by MH) more than once and I am sure reported and checked by MH for botting, because "how can your raid that much without?", having multies because "how can you settle that fast without helmet even". There is a limit of what you can offset with skills and activity though and in current PtP setup it may be beyond the limit.

      With that being said, we decided not to split duals on the account. Not because we want to make a stand, not because we have such high moral, but simply because we don't want to miss the fun actually fighting for our cropper. The new setup offers an exciting and new game-play and this is what we are looking for.

      Good luck to all, see you on the map.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by ELE ().

    • New

      Hope to see you in 2x ptp Ele? I think it is decided that this is the next serious server we play. Would be lovely to have you there.

      And yes. I have played so many accounts that were accused of cheating that I lose count of it.. That a random noob in the forum thinks I am one of those cheaters and that's why I am for the rule change is nothing that riles me up anymore.

      I just hope we have some worthwhile opposition on the 2x ptp... They can chief as much friendly as they want, I highly doubt that will change anything :D
      But what they should also change for ptp is that you can chief villages from your teammate. Doesn't make any sense to allow friendly chiefing but preventing it when it happens inside the alliance - where your supposed friends are.
    • New

      Fonzy87 wrote:

      When people talking about "justice" and "equality" trying to strenghthen this concepts, and read comments like "i'm tired", "you're boring", "we are not interested"....well you understand where the game is coming...these are quality that should be preserved!!! as in life even in a game!!

      As mention before, in forum today, also write cheaters...and they, obviously, don't want a really solution.
      Its like the same plot just new characters every day. Which is why its tiring :)

      I will speak about solutions when i can think of one or when I see one from you guys. (Cwl).

      For now its a lots of ifs and buts and nothing has really changed :) Yesterday is the same as tomorrow despite the change in rule :)

      senapsgas wrote:

      Its not my job, i pay for this game and I expect that they also use some of that money on developers, if they want me to come up with a waterproof system för them then they have to pay me for it.

      Simple as that, or do you got to McDonalds and make your own food aswell?
      What you say does make sense, but inherently the game is free. You pay for advantages which you get as soon as you pay. But I think we need more MHs per server.

      Currently the one MH whose around is georgi . He is on com1 and on beta :D , MH what i understand is a voluntary service , which minimalist perks, I really doubt he can investigate each case at top priority between the tickets and actual bans but he has done better than most on the bots being reported.

      How much can one person really do :P
      A-nub-is me , I am a noob.

      ELE wrote:

      I actually agree with @A-nub-is

    • New

      @Schneeente

      Every decision depences on individual case and opininon of MH. I know player who got banned for sending 4 waves in 1 second - ofc unbanned without compensation. I mean MH can be aggresive, but should admit mistakes, because even MH are real people (most of them are just volunteers). Please try to be less arrogant, thanks. Anyway I think TG should work on compensation if they are wrong.